MR. SCLATER - BOOTH said, he form of roads in Scotland had been brought joined in congratulating the hon. Gentle- in by Government, because the system man on bringing forward this measure, under which the roads were managed in which showed that he understood the sub- that country was altogether effete and ject, and had mastered its details, though obsolete, the expenses of management and he was inclined to think that he rather un- of collection amounting to between 25 to derrated the difficulty of the task which 30 per cent of the gross receipts. The he had undertaken. He believed that system adopted in the Isle of Man of levywhen they got into Committee upon the ing a rate upon wheels was equally unfair Bill there would be raised many objections with that now in force in England. It which it would be very difficult to meet. should not be forgotten in discussing this He (Mr. Sclater-Booth) was a member of question that pedestrians were interested the Committee of 1864, and he found the equally with the owners of vehicles in the difficulties of the question to be very much proper repair of the roads; and therefore greater than he had anticipated, and that it was not fair to throw the whole burden was the reason why, whilst the Committee of the expense incurred in keeping the condemned the present system, they found roads in a good condition upon the latter. it impossible to arrive at a decision as to It would be found on grappling with the what should be the remedy. Permissive roads debt that it was much less than was legislation was objectionable as casting generally supposed, since a large portion odium on those by whom it was carried of it brought no benefit to the creditors. He thought that it would be ex- Those who were interested in road reform tremely objectionable to keep up the tolls would wish success to the hon. Member's at the same time that the cost of repair- measure. ing the roads was cast upon the parish. He also thought that it would be found impracticable for the quarter sessions to grant rates in aid to particular parishes. He looked forward with great interest to know what were the precise provisions of the Bill, and should be sincerely glad if the matter could be successfully dealt with.

out.

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, he thought that any one who had taken an interest in the subject must have heard with great satisfaction the ability with which it had been handled by the hon. Gentleman, who must be prepared to meet with considerable opposition. This was a mere question between supporting the roads by rates or by tolls. He agreed that in large towns the toll system was unjust, and was only approved of by the man who lived on the lucky side of the gate. Every man who lived on the right side a toll-bar was glad that it should continue; but the man who unhappily lived on the wrong side had to pay not only for himself, but also for his friend on the other side. The inequality of the incidence of the present system could not be defended. It was a very proper desire that those who used the roads should pay for them; but the fact of the case was, those did not pay for the roads who used them. An immense number used roads without paying for them, and those who did pay for them paid for them twice over. He regretted that no measure for the re

MR. GREENE said, that before the hon. Gentleman could expect to obtain the support of the Gentlemen of the different counties, he must suggest some method by which a portion of the expenses of repairing the roads might be borne by some common fund. The occupation roads might be repaired by the different parishes, and the expense of repairing the main roads between large towns and other parts of the country might be thrown upon some general fund.

MR. WALPOLE said, he wished to express his thanks to the hon. Member for Sandwich for the lucid manner in which he had introduced this subject to the notice of the House. The question for decision was whether the expense of repairing the roads was to be met by rates or by tolls. When it was decided that tolls were to be done away with, and that the expense of repairs was to be met by a rate, the question would arise over what area that rate was to be extended. The three modes of raising the rate which had been suggested

namely, by a county rate, by a highway district rate, and by a parochial rate, had been distinctly condemned by the Committee of 1864, who suggested that the trusts might be watched and gradually got rid of from time to time as the debts upon them were extinguished. In his opinion this question could never be properly grappled with until the Permissive Bill for the highway districts was turned into a compulsory Act, and the charge of the turnpike roads,

as well as of the highways, was thrown | use to the parishes through which they upon the highway districts. If that object passed. The right hon. Gentleman had could be accomplished, the question might entirely misapprehended the proposal with be brought to a speedy and satisfactory reference to dealing with any existing debt. termination. As to the trusts which had Of course it would be idle to throw a debt debts still unpaid, he feared that if his upon a parish, and at the same time to hon. Friend endeavoured to cast upon the make that parish bear the expense of parishes the burden of their debts, as maintaining the roads. But it was an injuswell as the maintenance of the roads, he tice to compel those who maintained their would hardly be able to pass his Bill. He own roads to pay turnpike tolls. The did not quite understand the proposal as struggles that often took place in that to a subvention from the county rate, yet House for the maintenance of trusts where that was a matter which would require a debt of a few hundred pounds existed, great consideration, as it would involve the were not for the benefit of the public, but transfer of a burden from one place to were fostered by professional people for another, which was not a proper mode of their own benefit. In the metropolis all dealing with such a question. It was said the turnpikes had been got rid of; but it that these burdens should be thrown upon was a great injustice that persons residing the parishes; but many rural parishes did in the country were at liberty to drive into not benefit by roads which ran through the metropolis at the expense of the inthem nearly so much as the people of ad- habitants who maintained the roads, whereas joining towns. He had no wish to discuss Londoners driving into the country were the Bill at the present moment; but he at once beset with turnpikes, and had to thought that a discussion upon the second pay tolls in order that the roads might be reading of the Bill would be useful. He kept up in all the surrounding districts. hoped that when the Bill again came on Indeed, the number of roads maintained for discussion, those Members who took a by the ratepayers was now so great that great interest in this subject would be the continuance of turnpikes at all was an able to devise some means by which the injustice. The present system had gone trusts might be gradually got rid of. The on a great deal too long, and ought to be hon. Member had stated it to be his in- altogether abolished; and he thought the tention to propose, after the second reading present measure would meet a great variety of the Bill, that it should be referred to of circumstances, and would, though not a Select Committee. On behalf of the immediately, bring about the total abolition Government, he had no hesitation in giv- of turnpikes. It was not sought to effect ing his sanction to such a proposal, as he that end at once and violently, but to deal believed great good would result from its with each particular case as it arose in a being carried into effect. quiet and temperate manner.

MR. AYRTON said, he had been consulted by the hon. Gentleman when the Bill was being prepared, and he desired to say a few words upon the points that had arisen in the course of the discussion. It was, of course, difficult to explain all the details of the measure at this stage of the proceedings; but he believed that when the Bill was in the hands of hon. Members it would be admitted that it grappled suc cessfully with the difficulties of the case. The proposal was not to throw the debt of trusts on parishes which had to maintain the roads, but to provide that if parishes undertook a debt equal to that now distributed among the creditors, they might assume the trust and be repaid out of the produce of the tolls. He justified the County contributions, because there were many roads which formed the communication between remote parts of the county and large towns, but were now of little

MR. KNATCHBULL- HUGESSEN said: I will not repay the House for the kind indulgence with which they have heard me to-night by detaining them with any lengthy reply. There are only three observations to which I desire to allude. My hon. Friend the Member for Haverfordwest (Mr. Scourfield) has mentioned the difficulty there will be in asking the quarter sessions to adjudicate as to the granting aid to parishes from the county rate. I am quite aware of it. But the whole question is surrounded with difficulties ; and, to be quite frank with the House, I hope and expect that one result of calling the attention of the quarter sessions to this matter will be the adoption of the Highway Act in many places where it has not hitherto been adopted, and the demonstration to parishes that by adopting this Act the area of their rating will be extended, will, I hope, render the adoption

of the Highway Act more popular than it now is with some of the agricultural ratepayers. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole) says that the Select Committee of 1864 negatived the parochial rate. I had forgotten the fact for a moment; but let me remind him that the present law throws the repairs of those roads upon the parochial rates when the trusts expire; so that now, unless they obtain, at great expense, a new Act of Parliament, it is practically only by the arbitrary power of the Secretary of State that the trust is maintained and the roads kept from the parochial rates. This is a great responsibility upon the Secretary of State, from which I wish to relieve him. But I wish the House to note carefully one expression. which fell from my right hon. Friend. He said that he feared "we should never deal satisfactorily with the subject until the Highway Act was made compulsory." Well, Sir, I rejoice to hear the opinion of my right hon. Friend, and when we go to our Select Committee I hope that he, or those who are authorized to speak for him on that Committee, will make a proposition in accordance with that opinion. Upon that and every other point I shall be most ready to receive and adopt suggestions for the improvement of the Bill, and I trust out of that Committee we may produce a useful and satisfactory

measure.

Motion agreed to.

Bill to make further provision for the enlargement of the National Gallery, ordered to be HUNT. brought in by Lord JOHN MANNERS and Mr.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 82.]

PUBLIC-HOUSES, &c., BILL.-LEAVE.
FIRST READING.

MR. GRAVES said, he rose for the purpose of asking for leave to introduce a Bill for the better regulation of publichouses, refreshment houses, and beerhouses.

MR. SPEAKER: It is necessary that a proposition for a Bill of this nature should be first brought forward in a Committee of the Whole House.

Acts read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, itself into a Committee to consider of the "That this House will immediately resolve Acts relating to Public Houses, &c."

MR. ROEBUCK said, he would move an Amendment that the House go into Committee that day six months.

MR. SPEAKER said, the hon. and learned Gentleman could not do so. The Amendment should have been proposed before the Question was put from the Chair.

MR. ROEBUCK: I was listening as attentively as I could, and I was not aware that you put the Question. I should like to have an opportunity of moving my

Bill to alter and amend the Law relating to Amendment, and I think I ought to have

Turnpike Trusts, ordered to be brought in by
Mr. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN, Mr. GEORGE CLIVE,
Mr. AYRTON, and Mr. GOLDNEY.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 80.]

NATIONAL GALLERY ENLARGEMENT
BILL.

it.

MR. SPEAKER said, that if there had Motion was to be opposed, the better been any misunderstanding, and if the course would be that the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Graves) should make his statement, and that the Question should be put again.

LEAVE. FIRST READING. LORD JOHN MANNERS moved for MR. GRAVES said, that in consequence leave to introduce a Bill to make further of the objection which had just been made provision for the enlargement of the Na- in so unusual a manner to the granting tional Gallery. He said, that under the leave to introduce this Bill, he would meet arrangement sanctioned by Parliament last the case as it stood. On that day week, year, the right hon. Gentleman the Mom- when he was about to make a Motion simiber for Hertford (Mr. Cowper) hoped he lar to that which he had now placed on the should be able to purchase by private con- paper, he was met by an intimation from tract the property to which this measure the Speaker that it was doubtful whether referred-namely, Archbishop Tenison's the subject was one which a private Memschool and the parochial schools of St. ber was competent to deal with. On the Martin. Difficulties, however, had arisen, intimation being made he immediately and it was necessary to pass the Bill award-withdrew that Motion, and having since ing compensation to the owners, which he now moved for leave to introduce.

Motion agreed to.

had the benefit of advice from the Speaker he had been encouraged to proceed with. the present Motion, which he had learnt

was not contrary to the rules or the prac-ported by the inhabitants of Liverpool. If tice of the House. Looking at the fre- the House permitted the Bill to be introquent discussions on the subject which had duced, it was his intention to fix the second taken place in that House and the great reading for a distant day, so as to enable interest which attached to the question out his Colleague (Mr. Horsfall) to resume the of doors, he thought it might be taken for conduct of the Bill, and to give the granted that a very deep conviction existed House a full opportunity for its examinathat the time had arrived when a better tion. He now moved that the Speaker system of licensing ought to be established. leave the Chair. He knew no question more important than MR. ROEBUCK said, that his object that to which he was about to draw the was to learn the intentions and views of attention of the House, both as regarded the Government on this question. It was the magnitude of the trades involved and a large one, and affected many interests its indirect bearing on the social and moral which had grown up and been fostered by welfare of the great masses of our popula- Acts of Parliament. It was also a ques tion. He was sure that, notwithstanding tion which largely affected the public the objection taken on the very threshold morality. There was a class of persons of the inquiry by the hon. and learned called teetotallers, who supported permis. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), any proposal which would lead to a thorough discussion of this great subject would be received with satisfaction by the House. It was not his intention to enter on the present occasion into any lengthened explanation of the main features of the Bill, because that could be much more conveniently done on the second reading. Its main features would be found to be in harmony with the recommendations of the Committee of 1854, and with the provisions of the Bill which some two years ago was introduced into that House at the request of the licensed victuallers of Liverpool. The present Bill was not a private Bill. It recommended uniformity of licence; that it should be in the power of the justices alone to grant such; that all applicants must be of good character; and that all such applicants should have a right to receive a licence, subject, however, to a veto on the part of the owners or occupiers of the houses in the neighbourhood of the applicant; that there should be a minimum of Excise duty, with a minimum rating qualification, but subject to a reduction in the duty if the house were closed on Sundays; that there should be a limi-lieved the noble Lord the Secretary for tation with respect to the hours of opening, with power to the local authorities in the different boroughs to make still further restrictions. There were also certain saving clauses in the Bill with regard to existing privileges. He would not say that this Bill was all that could be desired in dealing with an important and a complicated question; but it was an effort as far as it went; and he hoped the House would allow it to go into Committee and be there considered. It had been framed by the magistrates and the corporation, and was sup

VOL. CLXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

sive Bills in order to put down the sale of intoxicating liquors. But the Bill of the hon. Member was advocated by a different class, for it went to establish a free .trade in liquors. The wisdom of Parliament had always made a distinction between the sale of commodities that were harmless and those that were not so. A bale of cotton might be passed from hand to hand without danger, and no restrictions were placed on its sale. But it was different with gunpowder. And so with regard to the sale of intoxicating liquors, which affected the public morality. Parliament had interfered for centuries, and under this interference or sanction of Parliament there had grown up large interests which this Bill went directly to affect. No private Member ought to be permitted to do this. The Government ought to take up the question, and tell the House what they intended to do. He wished to know from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole) whether the Government, who must know what was the object of the Bill, were prepared to support it. If they were not he would withdraw his opposition; if they were, he would go to a division. He be

Foreign Affairs (Lord Stanley) was pre pared to support this Bill. ["No!"] He was glad to hear that. He had thought from some part of the noble Lord's remarks, as chairman of quarter sessions, that he was in favour of free trade in intoxicating liquors. For himself, he was entirely opposed to it. He was also opposed to the permissive Bill of the teetotallers; but he was prepared to support a judicious intermediate action between these two extremes. He wished, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would explain to G