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ject of regulation. But though it might be necessary to introduce a Bill to protect the interests of the public, he thought that the Government had granted protection in too many ways. He had no objection to the proposal of the Government to limit the price to be charged. That could be reviewed from time to time. But he could not see any necessity for limiting the amount of dividend to £10 per cent. Such a limitation would naturally have the effect of depriving the companies of all inducement to exercise economy in the management of their affairs. If those two matters could be reconciled, he saw no reason why the Bill should not be read a second time.

MR. J. GOLDSMID said, he wished to call attention to a point of order. The Motion on the Paper was that the Bill be read a second time on "Monday the 29th of April." To that an Amendment was moved that the Bill be read that "day six months." The form of putting the Question would be "that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question;" but in case of that Motion being carried, as it certainly would be impossible to read the Bill a second time on Monday the 29th of April, it appeared to him that it would become a lapsed order.

against the extraordinary illusions propa- I thought that the competition of gas comgated by the proprietors of gas companies, panies might very fairly be made the subwho had talked about a confiscation of their rights, but they must remember that others had rights as well as themselves. While the gas companies were permitted to divide £10 per cent upon their capital, there was nothing in any Act of Parliament which precluded the local authorities of a borough from starting new gas companies on their own account, a course of proceeding which might speedily reduce existing companies to insolvency. If therefore the gas companies took their stand upon the mere question of right they would find themselves met by rights on the other side which would place them in a worse position than that contemplated by this Bill. The real question both for the gas companies and the inhabitants was whether they should have cheap gas by competition or by guaranteed monopolies. But even then it was a question whether the gas companies should have a guaranteed monopoly without anything being given in exchange. The course the right hon. Gentleman was taking seemed to amount to an abandonment of the interests of the metropolis in favour of the gas companies with whom the right hon. Gentleman had been in communication. The sooner, therefore, he withdrew from all responsibility in connection with this Bill the better MR. HENLEY said, that this Bill infor the interests of the inhabitants. He troduced by the Government contained himself saw no necessity whatever for very strong provisions, to say the least of adopting so violent a course, and he had it. They were, however, told by the Gotherefore suggested to the right hon. Gen-vernment that these objectionable provitleman the postponement of the debate until Monday next, because from what he had seen he thought there was a disposition on the part of the gas companies to appreciate the whole question, and to endeavour to arrive at a satisfactory solution. He did not oppose the second reading of the Bill as it was now framed; but he did object to any arrangement or understanding being arrived at which was to be binding upon the inhabitants of the metropolis, made without the sanction either of their representatives in the House or those to whom they had delegated authority outside. He thought that the right hon. Gentleman would still do wisely in postponing the second reading of the Bill, and he hoped that some course would yet be taken which would be more satisfactory than the one proposed by the right hon. Gentleman.

MR. HUBBARD said, he was not surprised to find that the Government had brought in a Bill upon this subject. He

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sions, by some kind of negotiation which
had been carried on outside the House,
were to be got rid of when the Bill went
into a Select Committee. But the House
was placed in this mischievous position,
that they were called on to affirm the prin-
ciple of the Bill upon a kind of under-
standing that certain things were to be cut
out of the Bill. This was not a desirable
position for the House to be placed in.
The subject was not an easy one.
House had created certain regulated mo-
nopolies with regard to the manufacture
and sale of gas. These monopolies were
regulated some six or seven years ago by
some summary act of the Government, and
now it appeared they were required to be
re-regulated. If this were to be done,
the Government should do it in its integ-
rity. He thought that it would have been
more just and satisfactory if the matter
had gone pure and simple, as the phrase
was, before the Committee, instead of the

Committee being hampered by the provi- | even an Act of Parliament. The difficulty sions of the Bill. It might be said in some arose in this way. Late in the evening, sense that the House had affirmed the when this question was last before the principle of the Bill; though he protested House, and when different Motions were against being bound by it in any way. He being postponed, the right hon. Gentleman thought the principles unjust, that they (Sir Stafford Northcote) who had charge should lay down the maximum of dividend of this Bill proposed to put it for the 29th which should be obtained, and that when a of April, upon which the hon. Member for company had been brought down to a cer- Ayr (Mr. Craufurd) moved that the Bill tain position then other persons were to should be read that day six months instead be allowed to buy them out upon terms of the 29th of April. I have before created by the Bill. That was a proposal pointed out the inconvenience arising from as strong as any that they had often been Gentlemen violently interposing with the called upon to sanction. If they had gone ordinary course of business in the House. to a division upon the second reading he Happily, it is an unusual thing, when should have voted against it. He thought a Member having charge of a Bill proit would be more consistent with their poses, from the lateness of the hour, to practice that the Bill should be withdrawn, postpone it, that another interposes and and that the subject should go to a Select insists upon moving an Amendment to Committee. Then they would be in a fair that simple proposal. However, that course position to deal justly with it. was taken upon this occasion, the deMR. MORRISON said, he thought it bate was adjourned, and the matter stands unadvisable that too large a field of inquiry thus :-The original Motion is that the should be imposed upon the Committee at Bill be read a second time on the 29th the present period of the Session. All po- of April; the Amendment proposes to litical economists had objected to the 10 per substitute "this day six months for the cent regulation. He would suggest that the 29th of April; and the Question to be put Committee should make certain alterations is that the words proposed to be left out in the present law. Let the gas companies should stand part of the Question. As the have the choice of submitting to the limita- hon. Member for Honiton observes, the tion of a 10 per cent dividend, or of en- House cannot properly negative the proposal deavouring to increase their profits by im- to read the Bill upon this day six months, proving their method of manufacture. and permit the original words, the 29th of They would then exercise economy in April, to stand as part of the Question. I the management of their affairs, at the therefore propose that the House get over same time conferring increased advantages the difficulty by negativing the Motion that on the public. As a matter of fact, with the words proposed to be left out-namely, the exception of the last year or two," the 29th of April," stand part of the almost all the gas companies had paid a dividend of 10 per cent. There was therefore no inducement which could lead to improved manufacture and increased economy, and, at the same time, cheaper rates for the public.

MR. KINNAIRD said, that the gas companies were desirous to have all questions affecting their interest and that of the public submitted to the Committee, as suggested by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Goldsmid) has raised a question upon which it will be necessary for me to say a few words. The House will observe that the Question proposed is that this Bill be read a second time on Monday the 29th of April. As we have arrived at the 2nd of May, it is impossible to read the Bill on the 29th of April. That, indeed, would be beyond the power of VOL. CLXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

Question. The Amendment, "this day six months," then becomes the original Motion. If the House negative that also, the Motion-which has not yet been putthat the Bill be now read the second time, can with propriety be put.

Amendment and Original Motion put, and negatived.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, he moved that the Bill be now read a second time. What he proposed in regard to the measure was, of course, not intended to bind the Members for the metropolis or any other parties. In referring the Bill to a Select Committee an opportunity would be afforded to all parties interested in the matter to introduce Amendments. He, however, only bound himself to the Government proposal. In reply to the observation of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley), to the effect that the Go

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Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee.-(Sir Stafford Northcote.)

MR. BONHAM-CARTER said, he wished to propose that the Bill should pass merely pro formá through the Committee, order that the alterations of the Government should be inserted before the Bill was referred to a Select Committee.

MR. AYRTON said, he wished to suggest that the Select Committee should consist of ten Members-five to be nomire-nated by the House and five by the Com

mittee of Selection.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, he was not aware whether the forms of the House would permit that.

vernment ought not to interpose in this
summary way, and that it was better the
matter should go independently before the
Select Committee, he would remind his
right hon. Friend that the subject did go
last year before a Committee, and it was
in consequence of the Report of that Com-in
mittee that the present measure was intro-
duced by the Government. It was framed
as nearly as possible in accordance with
its recommendations. As the gas com-
panies had said that their case had not
been fully heard before the Committee
ferred to, it had been proposed to them
that a Bill founded as nearly as possible
on the recommendations of the Committee
should be introduced, and the gas com-
panies could then have an opportunity of
securing a satisfactory completion of their
case. With respect to the impression
current on the subject of dividend, he as-
sured the House that the intention of the
Government was simply to permit the gas
companies to increase their dividends in
proportion as they decreased the price
in gas.
This proposal he thought would
offer an inducement to the gas com-
panies to be economical, and lead to
the benefit of the public, whereas now the
companies had no such inducement when
they had once reached the maximum divi-
dend. The gas companies had objected
that the Government had fixed too low a
rate of dividend to commence with. The
Government had accordingly consented to
let £10 per cent instead of £7 per cent
stand as the maximum of dividend, with-
out corresponding decrease of price. To
use a somewhat famous phrase, they had

no wish to draw a "hard and fast line
at 10 per cent with respect to the divi-
dend, but to make the 10 per cent the
starting point, and fix the dividends on a
sliding scale in accordance with the reduced
price of gas. Those, however, were ques-
tions for the Committee to which the Bill
was to be submitted. He denied that
there was the slightest intention on the
part of the Government to confiscate the
property of the gas companies.

MR. AYRTON said, he wished it to be understood that no arrangement was made by the inhabitants, the local authorities, or the representatives of the metropolis in the House. They entirely repudiated the whole matter, and as far as he knew they would be entirely dissatisfied with what was proposed.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

MR. PAULL said, he thought it would be undesirable that the right hon. Gentleman should pledge himself to the number of the Select Committee. The Bill had better be referred to a Select Committee of five rather, than ten.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, the Bill should be sent in its present form to the Select Committee for them to deal with it as they thought best.

MR. GOLDSMID said, it would be better to commit the Bill pro formá, and refer it with the Amendments to the Select

Committee.

MR. POWELL said, he hoped the Bill would be committed pro forma, and reprinted with the Amendments. Much anxiety was felt in the country with reference to the principle of the Bill.

MR. ADAIR said, he agreed with the suggestion that the Bill should be committed pro forma, and reprinted with the Amendments before being sent to the Select Committee. The Metropolitan Gas Bill of 1860 was sent to a Select Committee of five Members, and he thought the House would exercise a wise discretion in following that precedent. A Select Committee of five would be most satisfactory to the House and those whose interests were concerned. The Committee should

be moved by the Committee of Selection.

MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, the Committee should consist of ten Members, and care should be taken that they were not shareholders in, or directors of, gas companies.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, that in deference to the opinion of the House, he would commit the Bill pro formâ, and introduce the Amendments.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill committed, considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 129.]

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(Sir Graham Montgomery, Mr. Secretary
Walpole, Mr. Hunt.)

[BILL 89.] SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Sir Graham Montgomery.)

MR. M'LAREN: The Bill now before the House is one of considerable importance to the people of Scotland, and there has not yet been sufficient time to consider the whole of its provisions. At the same time, looking at the opportunity which exists to-night of reading the Bill a second time, I am unwilling to divide the House on the subject. I think it right to state that there are very serious objections to the principle of the Bill, in two points in particular. The first is the clauses which refer to the powers to be given to the General Board of Supervision in Scotland to rule over all the towns and parishes in a manner altogether beyond its province. If the Bill passes in its present form, there is not a large town in Scotland which will not be regulated by this Board. From Edinburgh they can send down one of their own number, or they may send one, two, or three professional gentlemen, including advocates, engineers, physicians, and architects, all at the expense of the Treasury, to examine and report respecting the sanitary condition of any town or parish in Scotland. I should like to know from the Secretary of the Treasury, before this Bill is finally disposed of, whether any estimate has been made of the probable expense which this will entail on the Treasury. Great power is also given to the Board to appoint officers of all kinds, not being members of the Board, such as members of the Faculty of Advocates, medical men, surveyors, engineers, or architects, to act as Commissioners. They can send these gentlemen down into the country for a period not exceeding forty days, and at the expiration of this period these gentlemen go to the Treasury in London, where they are paid as the Treasury may determine. It is a system contrary to the legislation of the last twenty years, to place all the towns

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and parishes of Scotland under this Board in Edinburgh. The Board is also an irresponsible one, not liable to be called to account in Parliament for any of its acts. It will have far more power in Scotland than the Secretary of State for the Home Department has in analogous cases in England. I have grave doubts whether it would be right to sanction such a proposal. The whole scheme will involve a large expenditure of the public funds for purposes which are not at all necessary. Then, I object to the principle of the assessment. An assessment is to be made for works of drainage and a variety of other things; and it is provided that, wherever manufactories and farmhouses are assessed under this Act, they shall only be assessed at a quarter of their actual rent, while all other houses, shops, and buildings are to be assessed at their full rent. It comes to this, that, supposing an assessment of 28. in the pound made for the proposed carrying out of certain drainage works, farmhouses and manufactories will be assessed at the rate of 6d. in the pound, while all other buildings and houses will have to pay at the rate of 2s. This is a principle altogether unjust, and should not receive the sanction of this House. It is a well-known fact that certain manufactories, such as distilleries and dyeworks, are in many cases the cause of nuisances, and expensive drainage works have to be constructed to free houses from the effects of their evil doings. For these reasons, I wish to be held as not committing myself to an approval of the principle of the Bill, and to be at liberty in Committee to move the rejection of any of the objectionable clauses.

COLONEL SYKES: I should be glad if the Government would postpone the second reading of this Bill. I have not yet had an opportunity of fully communicating with my constituents, who, I believe, will be affected considerably by it.

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY: I hope that the House will allow the Bill to be read a second time to-night, because the points which have been touched upon can fairly be dealt with when we get into Committee upon it. As to the question of expense, it is a common thing for the Treasury to have the regulation of the expenses to be incurred by Boards, and the only actual sum this Bill will create will be salaries of three sheriffs, at £50 a year.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE: I hope the hon. Baronet will give us an as

surance, when this Bill is again brought forward, that ample notice of the fact will be conveyed to the Scotch Members beforehand. There is a great desire to give certain powers to this Board; but it is a question whether they ought to have those powers extended so far as at present proposed. It would be premature to enter into a discussion now, and I shall not object to the second reading to-night, on the understanding that the full discussion is taken on a future occasion.

MR. GRAHAM: I have no wish to oppose the second reading of the Bill, as, no doubt, it will be of valuable service to the smaller communities of Scotland. But, at the same time, on behalf of the large communities, I think the powers which are asked for on behalf of the Board are too large. There will be an irresponsible expenditure, and in Committee this and other matters will have to be altered.

MR. WALPOLE: Ample notice shall be given prior to the next stage of the Bill.

MR. FORDYCE: I am in favour of the Bill, though, at the same time, I am aware that, as regards the large Scotch towns, there is an opposition to it. In fact, only this afternoon I received a telegram from Aberdeen, asking me to co-operate with the hon. and gallant Member for that city in regard to some of the provisions of the Bill.

Motion agreed to.

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That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order of the Board of Health, or authorizing any In

Bill read a second time, and committed closure of Lands under special Report of the Infor Thursday next.

FACTORY ACTS EXTENSION BILL. Order for Committee read, and discharged :— Bill committed to a Select Committee.

HOURS OF LABOUR REGULATION BILL.

Order for Committee read, and discharged :— Bill committed to a Select Committee.

Ordered, That the Select Committee on the Factory Acts Extension Bill and the Hours of Labour Regulation Bill do consist of seventeen Members.

And, on May 10, Select Committee nominated as follows:-Lord JOHN MANNERS, Mr. Adderley, Mr. POWELL, Mr. HARTLEY, Mr. AUSTIN BRUCE, Mr. WHITBREAD, Mr. EDMUND POTTER, Mr. FAWCETT, Mr. BAGNALL, Mr. WILBRAHAM EGERTON, Mr. FREDERICK STANLEY, Sir WILLIAM STIRLINGMAXWELL, Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. MOFFATT, Mr. AKROYD, Mr. BAXTER, and Sir FREDERICK HEYGATE :Five to be the quorum.

And, on May 14, Mr. J. B. Smith added; May 16, Mr. Samuelson added.

closure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for confirming any Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 21st Day of June next :

That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 21st Day of June

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