Bill committed, considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 129.]

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(Sir Graham Montgomery, Mr. Secretary
Walpole, Mr. Hunt.)

[BILL 89.] SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Sir Graham Montgomery.)

MR. M'LAREN: The Bill now before the House is one of considerable importance to the people of Scotland, and there has not yet been sufficient time to consider the whole of its provisions. At the same time, looking at the opportunity which exists to-night of reading the Bill a second time, I am unwilling to divide the House on the subject. I think it right to state that there are very serious objections to the principle of the Bill, in two points in particular. The first is the clauses which refer to the powers to be given to the General Board of Supervision in Scotland to rule over all the towns and parishes in a manner altogether beyond its province. If the Bill passes in its present form, there is not a large town in Scotland which will not be regulated by this Board. From Edinburgh they can send down one of their own number, or they may send one, two, or three professional gentlemen, including advocates, engineers, physicians, and architects, all at the expense of the Treasury, to examine and report respecting the sanitary condition of any town or parish in Scotland. I should like to know from the Secretary of the Treasury, before this Bill is finally disposed of, whether any estimate has been made of the probable expense which this will entail on the Treasury. Great power is also given to the Board to appoint officers of all kinds, not being members of the Board, such as members of the Faculty of Advocates, medical men, surveyors, engineers, or architects, to act as Commissioners. They can send these gentlemen down into the country for a period not exceeding forty days, and at the expiration of this period these gentlemen go to the Treasury in London, where they are paid as the Treasury may determine. It is a system contrary to the legislation of the last twenty years, to place all the towns

and parishes of Scotland under this Board in Edinburgh. The Board is also an irresponsible one, not liable to be called to account in Parliament for any of its acts. It will have far more power in Scotland than the Secretary of State for the Home Department has in analogous cases in England. I have grave doubts whether it would be right to sanction such a proposal. The whole scheme will involve a large expenditure of the public funds for purposes which are not at all necessary. Then, I object to the principle of the assessment. An assessment is to be made for works of drainage and a variety of other things; and it is provided that, wherever manufactories and farmhouses are assessed under this Act, they shall only be assessed at a quarter of their actual rent, while all other houses, shops, and buildings are to be assessed at their full rent. It comes to this, that, supposing an assessment of 28. in the pound made for the proposed carrying out of certain drainage works, farmhouses and manufactories will be assessed at the rate of 6d. in the pound, while all other buildings and houses will have to pay at the rate of 2s. This is a principle altogether unjust, and should not receive the sanction of this House. It is a well-known fact that certain manufactories, such as distilleries and dyeworks, are in many cases the cause of nuisances, and expensive drainage works have to be constructed to free houses from the effects of their evil doings. For these reasons, I wish to be held as not committing myself to an approval of the principle of the Bill, and to be at liberty in Committee to move the rejection of any of the objectionable clauses.

COLONEL SYKES: I should be glad if the Government would postpone the second reading of this Bill. I have not yet had an opportunity of fully communicating with my constituents, who, I believe, will be affected considerably by it.

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY: I hope that the House will allow the Bill to be read a second time to-night, because the points which have been touched upon can fairly be dealt with when we get into Committee upon it. As to the question of expense, it is a common thing for the Treasury to have the regulation of the expenses to be incurred by Boards, and the only actual sum this Bill will create will be salaries of three sheriffs, at £50 a year.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE: I hope the hon. Baronet will give us an as

surance, when this Bill is again brought forward, that ample notice of the fact will be conveyed to the Scotch Members beforehand. There is a great desire to give certain powers to this Board; but it is a question whether they ought to have those powers extended so far as at present proposed. It would be premature to enter into a discussion now, and I shall not object to the second reading to-night, on the understanding that the full discussion is taken on a future occasion.

MR. GRAHAM: I have no wish to oppose the second reading of the Bill, as, no doubt, it will be of valuable service to the smaller communities of Scotland. But, at the same time, on behalf of the large communities, I think the powers which are asked for on behalf of the Board are too large. There will be an irresponsible expenditure, and in Committee this and other matters will have to be altered.

MR. WALPOLE: Ample notice shall be given prior to the next stage of the Bill.

MR. FORDYCE: I am in favour of the Bill, though, at the same time, I am aware that, as regards the large Scotch towns, there is an opposition to it. In fact, only this afternoon I received a telegram from Aberdeen, asking me to co-operate with the hon. and gallant Member for that city in regard to some of the provisions of the Bill.

Motion agreed to.

That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order of the Board of Health, or authorizing any In

FACTORY ACTS EXTENSION BILL.

Order for Committee read, and discharged :Bill committed to a Select Committee.

HOURS OF LABOUR REGULATION BILL. Order for Committee read, and discharged :— Bill committed to a Select Committee.

Ordered, That the Select Committee on the Factory Acts Extension Bill and the Hours of Labour Regulation Bill do consist of seventeen Members.

And, on May 10, Select Committee nominated as follows:-Lord JOHN MANNERS, Mr. ADDERLEY, Mr. POWELL, Mr. HARTLEY, Mr. AUSTIN BRUCE, Mr. WHITBREAD, Mr. EDMUND POTTER, Mr. FAWCETT, Mr. BAGNALL, Mr. WILBRAHAM EGERTON, Mr. FREDERICK STANLEY, Sir WILLIAM STIRLINGMAXWELL, Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. MOFFATT, Mr. AKROYD, Mr. BAXTER, and Sir FREDERICK HEYGATE :— Five to be the quorum.

And, on May 14, Mr. J. B. Smith added; May 15, Mr. Samuelson added.

closure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for confirming any Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 21st Day of June next :

That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 21st Day of June

next:

That when a Bill shall have passed this House with Amendments, these Orders shall not apply to any new Bill sent up from the House of ComImons which the Chairman of Committees shall

report to the House is substantially the same as the Bill so amended.

House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, May 3, 1867.

the hon. Gentleman is entitled to make a speech on the Irish question under colour of presenting a petition?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is in order. He states that the petition con

ings in Royal Parks.

First Reading-Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation [130]; Meetings in Royal Parks [134]; British Spirits * [135]. Committee

*

Bankruptcy *[74]; Judgment Debtors [75]; Bankruptcy Acts Repeal [76]; Land Drainage Supplemental * [123]. Report Bankruptcy [74 & 131]; Judgment Debtors [75 & 132]; Bankruptcy Acts Repeal* [133]; Land Drainage Supplemental* [123]. Third Reading · Local Government Supplemental [121], and passed.

IRELAND-FENIANISM.-PETITION.

MR. BRIGHT: Sir, I rise to present a petition to the House which is of a very peculiar character, and if the House will give me their attention I will state its purport. It is signed by twelve or thirteen gentlemen, who are well known to many Members of this House, and who are persons of first-class education and in good position. The petition has reference to the state of things in Ireland. It begins by condemning secret associations, and the violence which has followed, and expresses a hope that order may be restored to Ireland by the judicious use of power by the English Government. It states that the petitioners remember that the history of Ireland has been the history, first, of imperfect conquest and long neglect; next, of war and the dispossession of the Irish people; then of legal injustice and harsh repression of the disturbances caused by the said injustice. They go on to state their disapprobation of certain things which exist in Ireland at this moment, as, for example, the Irish Church Establishment and the enforcement of a system of land law at variance with the traditions and feelings of the Irish people. They declare that the Government of Ireland is a Government in the interest, not of Ireland, but of the State Church and the territorial aristocracy of England; that by the present distribution of political power the Irish nation is unable to make its wishes adequately felt by the stronger country to which it is bound; that in consequence of the apparent hopelessness of a remedy for the evils which press upon their country

MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE: I rise to order. I wish, Sir, to know whether

so he is perfectly in order.

MR. BRIGHT: They state that in consequence of the apparent hopelessness of a remedy for the evils which press upon their country, honourable Irishmen may, however erroneously, feel justified in resorting to force-that, in a word, there is a legitimate ground for the chronic discontent of which Fenianism is the expression; and therefore some palliation for the errors of Fenianism

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH: I rise to order. I think, Sir, you decided some short time ago that an hon. Gentleman who attributed a participation in the opinions of Fenians to Gentlemen in this House was out of order. I therefore ask you, Sir, whether the hon. Member is in order in giving currency to a petition and taking advantage of the privileges of the House to read at length a petition which, in fact, justifies Fenianism, which has been condemned by judicial authority and by the highest authority in this House-namely, Sir, yourself.

MR. SPEAKER: The other day, when a Member of this House stated that other Members of the House were Fenians or approvers of Fenianism, I made the observations I then used with regard to one Member of the House attributing such opinions to other Members of the House; but I did not undertake or pretend to prescribe exactly what the language of a petition should be.

MR. BRIGHT: I will now read the prayer of the petition

"Your Petitioners, therefore, pray your honourable House that it may take such measures as it shall judge fit, Firstly, To secure the revision of the sentences already passed on Fenians, sentences of great, and in the judgment of your Petitioners generally, excessive and irritating severity."

I ought to state that this refers to the sentences not of this week, but to those passed previously.

Secondly, To provide in any case that prisoners suffering as Fenians or for a political offence shall not during the execution of their sentence be confined in common with prisoners suffering for offences against the ordinary criminal laws of their country. Thirdly, Your Petitioners, justly alarmed by their recollection of the atrocities perpetrated by the English troops in Ireland in

1798, as also by their recollection of the conduct of the English army and its officers in India and Jamaica: lastly, by the suggestions of the public press and the general tone of the wealthy classes with regard to the suppression of rebellion, pray your honourable House to provide that the utmost moderation and strict adherence to the laws of fair and humane warfare may be inculcated on the army now serving in Ireland. Lastly, Your Petitioners pray that the prisoners taken may be well treated before trial, and judged and sentenced with as much leniency as is consistent with the preservation of order, and that in the punishments awarded there may be none of a degrading nature, as said punishment seem to your Petitioners inapplicable to men whose cause and whose offence are alike free from dishonour"

COLONEL STUART KNOX: I rise to order. I beg, Sir, to ask whether the hon. Member is in order now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is

entitled, in presenting a petition, to read the prayer of that petition.

COLONEL STUART KNOX: Whether loyal or disloyal?

MR. BRIGHT: "However misguided they may be as to the special end they have in view, or as to the means they have adopted to attain that end." The signatures, perhaps, I may read

"Richard Congreve, Southfields, Wandsworth; E. Truelove, 256, Holborn; Edward Spencer Beesly, University Hall, Gordon Square; Frederick Harrison, Lincoln's Inn; T. H. Bridges, Bradford, Yorkshire; H. Crompton, 23, Westbourne Terrace; S. H. Reynolds, Brasenose College, Oxford; C. A. Cookson, Inner Temple; F. B. Barton, 29, Lamb's Conduit Street; John Maughan, 1, Pleasant Row, Canonbury; S. D. Williams, jun., Birmingham."

In the general spirit of that petition I entirely agree.

MR. SPEAKER: The question is that the petition lie on the table.

COLONEL STUART KNOX: I beg to move that this petition be not allowed to be laid upon the table of the House.

MR. PEEL DAWSON: I beg to second that Motion.

MR. NEWDEGATE: oppose the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member, because I see nothing disrespectful to the House in the language of the petition. However we may reprobate the undertaking for which these men are now under trial, still, I think, that when a petition of this kind is brought before this House, praying for a fair trial, and for fair consideration by the prisoners or their friends, it would be most unbecoming of the dignity of the House and most impolitic for us to reject it.

MR. WHALLEY: Sir, there is one paragraph in the petition to which I should wish to call attention, as I think it is worthy of the consideration of the House whether it does not of itself justify the Motion that has been made. That paragraph asks that the troops shall be directed to conduct themselves according to the laws of fair and humane warfare. I would ask the House to bear in mind what I have established, or have offered to establish-namely, that the late Fenian movement had a deliberate purpose. This was that the Fenians should act in connection with the like party in America, so as to President of the American Union a decla. afford grounds for demanding from the ration that the Fenians were a belligerent Power. In this case, I am enabled to state upon undoubted authority, very large sums are ready to be embarked in the the House accepts this petition to which enterprize of sending out privateers. their attention is thus formally called, in which our troops are described as being engaged in a state of warfare, instead of in putting down a lot of freebooters and scoundrels of every kind-indeed, every origin except the real one has been attributed to them-I ask whether this fact will not be of very material importance in any future communication which the brethren of these Fenians may think fit to make to the President of the United States.

If

MR. ESMONDE said, he trusted that the hon. and gallant Member would withdraw his Motion.

MR. SPEAKER said, that the only Motion before the House was that the petition do lie upon the table. If any hon. Member objected to that Motion he might vote against it.

MR. ESMONDE hoped that the hon. and gallant Member would not divide the House. He was as much opposed to Fenianism as was the hon. Member; but he thought that to reject this petition would be particularly unfortunate at the present time. It would be playing into the hands of the friends of Fenianism, and would give force to their endeavours to persuade the people that there was no use in resorting to Parliamentary action in behalf of Ireland, because this House would turn a deaf ear to their complaints. The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Baillie Cochrane), who had raised this question, had been previously known as an admirer of tornadoes; but in this instance he had only raised storm in a teapot.