203

Case of

{COMMONS}

a supposed statement which was denied.
Mr. Churchward had been unjustly used, es-
pecially when the hon. and learned Member
for Richmond, the then Attorney General,
shut him up in a Court of Law, by insisting
that the contract did not mean that he was
to receive payment, but meant that he was
always to have his boats ready for the ser-
vice of Her Majesty's Government. An
attack was unjustly and unfairly made
upon Mr. Churchward, so as to put him in
a position of not being entitled to receive
the grant which the Crown had made for
the services which that gentleman had ren-
dered. And that was followed up by the
hon. and learned Gentleman the Member
for Richmond, the late Attorney General,
preventing Mr. Churchward from showing
in a Court of Law that his contract was a
valid one, by meeting him with a demurrer
to that very contract for the rescinding of
which the hon. and learned Gentleman was
Mr. Churchward had been
responsible.

When he (Mr.
most unjustly treated.
Freshfield) heard that night the statement
of the hon. and learned Gentleman, made
as it was in that spirit of advocacy which
was so oppressive, when administered by
so eminent an advocate, he could not refrain
from addressing the House against this
attempt to shut out Mr. Churchward under
those circumstances from exercising the
office of magistrate for the borough of
Dover, which his position in that place
justly entitled him to occupy. This pro-
ceeding would be a great hardship on Mr.
Churchward, following, as it would, the
hardship of having denied him the bene-
fit of the contract which he made with
the Crown.

"That the words proposed Question put, to be left out stand part of the Question.' The House divided:-Ayes 141; Noes

161: Majority 20.

De La Poer, E.
Dent, J. D.
Dillwyn, L. L.
Duff, R. W.
Dunlop, A. C. S. M.
Edwards, C.

Erskine, Vice-Ad. J. E.
Evans, T. W.

Ewing, H. E. Crum-
Eykyn, R.
Fawcett, H.
Fildes, J.
FitzGerald, Lord O. A.

Fitzwilliam, hn.C.W.W.
Foljambe, F. J. S.
Forster, C.
Forster, W. E.
Fortescue, hon. D. F.
Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Gavin, Major
Gladstone, rt. hn. W.E.
Gladstone, W. H.
Glyn, G. G.
Goldsmid, Sir F. H.
Goschen, rt. hon. G. J.

Gray, Sir J.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grove, T. F.
Gurney, S.
Hadfield, G.
Hamilton, E. W. T.

Hardcastle, J. A
Harris, J. D.

McLaren, D.
Marjoribanks, D. C.
Merry, J.
Milbank, F. A.
Mill, J. S.
Mills, J. R.

Milton, Viscount
Moffatt, G.

Monsell, rt. hon. W.

Moore, C.

Morrison, W.

Murphy, N. D.
O'Brien, Sir P.
O'Conor Don, The
O'Donoghue, The

O'Loghlen, Sir C. M.
Onslow, G.
O'Reilly, M. W.
Otway, A. J.
Padmore, R.
Palmer, Sir R.
Pease, J. W.
Pelham, Lord
Pim, J.

Pollard-Urquhart, W.
Potter, E.

Power, Sir J.

Robertson, D.

Rothschild, Baron M.de

Rothschild, N. M. de

Samuelson, B.

Scholefield, W.

Sherriff, A. C.
Hartington, Marquess of Simeon, Sir J.
Herbert, H. A.
Henderson, J.
Hodgkinson, G.
Holden, I.

Smith, J.
Speirs, A. A.
Stacpoole, W.
Stansfeld, J.

Howard, hon. C. W. G. Sullivan, E.
Hughes, T.
Ingham, R.
Jervoise, Sir J. C.
Johnstone, Sir J.
Kinglake, J. A.
Kingscote, Colonel
Kinnaird, hon. A. F.
Lamont, J.
Layard, A. H.
Lawson, rt. hon. J. A.
Leatham, W. H.

Synan, E. J.

Tracy, hon. C. R. D.
Hanbury-

Lefevre, G. J. S.

Locke, J.

Trevelyan, G. 0.
Villiers, rt. hon. C. P.
Whatman, J.
White, hon. Capt. C.
White, J.

Whitworth, B.

Woods, H.

Williamson, Sir H.

Wyvill, M.

Young, R.

Lowe, rt. hon. R.

Lusk, A.

TELLERS.

Mackie, J.

Taylor, P. A.

AYES.

Mackinnon, Capt. L. B. Craufurd, E. H. J.

Adair, H. E.

Candlish, J.

Adam, W. P.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E.

NOES.

Amberley, Viscount

Anstruther, Sir R.

Carnegie, hon. C.

Cave, T.

Antrobus, E.

Barnes, T.

Cavendish, Lord G.
Cheetham, J.

Bagge, W.

Bowen, J. B.

Barry, A. H. S.

Childers, H. C. E.

Barry, C. R.

Clay, J.

Bass, M. T.

Clement, W. J.

Biddulph, Colonel R. M.

Clive, G.

Bonham-Carter, J.

Brand, hon. H.

Bruce, Lord C.
Bryan, G. L.

Buller, Sir E. M.
Buxton, Sir T. F.
Calcraft, J. H. M.

Cogan, rt. hn. W. H. F. Bateson, Sir T.

Collier, Sir R. P.
Colvile, C. R.
Cowen, J.

Cowper, hon. H. F.
Crawford, R. W.
Crossley, Sir F.

Beach, Sir M. H.
Beach, W. W. B.
Beecroft, G. S.
Benyon, R.

Bernard, hn. Col. H. B.

Bowyer, Sir G.
Bridges, Sir B. W.
Bromley, W. D.
Bruce, Sir H. H.
Cartwright, Colonel
Cave, rt. hon. S.
Chatterton, H. E.
Clinton, Lord A. P.
Clive, Capt. hon. G. W.
Cobbold, J. C.
Cole, hon. II.
Cole, hon, J. L.

Bailey, Sir J. R.

Barnett, H.

Barrington, Viscount
Barrow, W. II.

Barttelot, Colonel

Bathurst, A. A.

Cox, W. T.

Dick, F.

Dickson, Major A. G.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B.
Dowdeswell, W. E.
Du Cane, C.

Dyke, W. H.

Dyott, Colonel R.
Earle, R. A.

Eaton, H. W.
Edwards, Sir II.
Egerton, E. C.
Egerton, hon. W.
Fane, Colonel J. W.
Fellowes, E.
Fergusson, Sir J.
Floyer, J.

Forester, rt. hon. Gen.
Freshfield, C. K.
Gallwey, Sir W. P.
Gilpin, Colonel
Goddard, A. L.
Goldney, G.
Gore, J. R. O.
Gore, W. R. O.
Gorst, J. E.
Grant, A.
Graves, S. R.
Greenall, G.
Greene, E.
Grey, hon. T. de
Griffith, C. D.
Gurney, rt. hon. R.
Hamilton, Lord C.
Hamilton, I. T.

Hanmer, Sir J.

hon.

Herbert, hn. Colonel P.
Hesketh, Sir T. G.
Hildyard, T. B. T.
Hodgson, W. N.
Hogg, Lt.-Col. J. M.
Holmesdale, Viscount
Huddleston, J. W.
Hunt, G. W.
Innes, A. C.
Jolliffe, hon. H. II.

Karslake, Sir J. B.

Karslake, E. K.

Lindsay, Col. R. L.
MacEvoy, E.
M'Kenna, J. N.

M'Lagan, P.

Mainwaring, T.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER: I hope the House will pause be-
fore assenting to a general proposition of
this nature without any examination into
Malcolm, J. W.
it.
Manners, rt. hn. Lord J.
Mitchell, A.
Montgomery, Sir G.
Mordaunt, Sir C.
Morgan, O.
Morgan, hon. Major
Mowbray, rt. hon. J. R.

Naas, Lord
Neate, C.
Neeld, Sir J.
Neville-Grenville, R.
Newdegate, C. N.
Newport, Viscount
Noel, hon. G. J.
North, Colonel
Northcote,rt.hn.SirS.II.
O'Beirne, J. L.
O'Neill, E.
Paget, R. H.
Parker, Major W.
Powell, F. S.
Read, C. S.
Repton, G. W. J.
Ridley, Sir M. W.
Robertson, P. F.
Russell, Sir C.
Schreiber, C.
Sclater-Booth, G.
Selwyn, H. J.
Selwyn, C. J.
Severne, J. E.
Sheridan, H. B.
Simonds, W. B.
Smith, A.
Stanhope, J. B.
Stanley, Lord
Stirling-Maxwell, SirW.
Stopford, S. G.
Stuart, Lt.-Colonel W.
Surtees, F.
Surtees, II. E.
Taylor, Colonel
Thynne, Lord H. F.
Tollemache, J.
Turner, C.
Vance, J.

Vandeleur, Colonel
Verner, E. W.
Walker, Major G. G.
Walpole, rt. hon. S. H.
Walsh, Sir J.
Waterhouse, S.
Whalley, G. H.
Whitmore, H.
Wise, H. C.
Woodd, B. T.
Wyld, J.

Wyndham, hon, P.

TELLERS.

Bentinck, G. A. C.
Lowther, J.

MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I hope the House and I hope the country will consider well the purport of the short speech that has now been extracted from the right hon. Gentleman. About an hour ago it was my duty to rise upon the Amendment propounded-no doubt, honestly propounded the Member for -by my hon. Friend Whitehaven (Mr. Bentinck), and I pointed out, or endeavoured to point out, that the subject-matter of the Amendment, at the time, deserved the consideration of proper the House of Commons. In doing so, Sir, I was guided mainly by the fact that this important Amendment had been proposed and the discussion on it raised without previous notice given to the House. On that account it did appear to me that the time for the discussion of the question had not arrived, and that it should not be discussed except on notice, because of its novelty and because of the breadth of the field which it covered. The right hon. Gentleman has now discovered this. "The engineer hoist with his own petard," and smarting under the consequences of the victory which his Friends have gained for him, now falls back on words of wisdom, which he would not speak while it was yet time. I raised that issue. I did not object to the substance of the Amendment. I am convinced that the time is come when this House should take care as to the impression it creates out of doors with regard to the seriousness of its intentions at striking at acts of bribery in high places. But upon the issue of the unfitness of the present time. I objected to the addition of the words of the Amendment. The House has overruled my objection by a majority. The House has decided by a majority that this is the time to entertain the question, and Her Majesty's Government have formed a portion of that majority. If, Sir, this be the time to entertain the question, I feel that my duty to the House, and my respect to the House, bind me to say Aye" or "No" on it. My choice is made in a moment. I will say "Aye" on it.

MR. NEWDEGATE: The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) warned us to think well before we adopted the Amend"That those words be ment that is now before us. I voted

against the Motion, because I felt that we were likely to be guilty of a gross injus

tice in punishing a man a second time for | fication in that statement as to the class of an offence committed in a matter which a vessels. It was accepted by the public as Committee had recommended should not referring generally to the state of the navy be further proceeded with, and I voted in and to all classes of ships, and there rethe majority. The right hon. Gentleman sulted a series of attacks in the press upon now for the sake of attracting popular the administration of the late Board. The attention supports an Amendment which statement further alarmed not only those he condemned at the beginning of this who were prone to panics about the state debate. I have no love of corruption. I of the navy, but those who dreaded anosupported last year the Motion of the ther re-construction of the navy similar to hon. Baronet the Member for North- that inaugurated in 1859 by the right hon. amptonshire (Sir Rainald Knightley) upon Gentleman. At the commencement of this the subject of bribery and corruption, Session, the Duke of Somerset addressed and I did so honestly, in the sense in himself to this subject in "another place,' which Mr. Pitt proposed to punish bribery and defended the condition in which he and corruption-namely, by disfranchis- had left the navy. The noble Earl at the ing the corrupt constituencies. I am pre- head of the Government (the Earl of Derby) pared to pursue that course again; and I answered him, and produced in justificaknow that the hon. Baronet will not be tion of his Colleague an extract from a wanting when the time comes. But I am not memorandum by Sir Frederick Grey, going to vote for an Address to the Crown to which had been found among papers left issue a fishing inquiry into transactions of at the Admiralty, and on the faith of which years long past. I am not going to vote he said the right hon. Gentleman had made for a proposition that the right hon. Gen- his answer in this House. Sir Frederick tleman condemned at the beginning of this Grey was very much dissatisfied with the discussion. He may find it convenient to use made of his name, and of some casual change his opinion during the evening. I remarks of his in a memorandum upon shall retain mine. All I hope is that when the policy of building some paddle-wheel the time comes for the hon. Baronet the steamers, and had asked him to move for Member for Northamptonshire to cite Mr. a Return of the memorandum. Finding, Pitt's opinion for the effectual prevention however, that it would be contrary to the of bribery we shall be supported by the forms of the House to move for a paper right hon. Gentleman. which had been quoted in another place," he (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre) contented himself with making a general denial on behalf of Sir Frederick Grey, in the course of the

Motion agreed to.
Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and debate on the state of the dockyards, and agreed to.

Sir

there the matter would have rested. But in the course of the very able and clear statement made by the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty (Lord Henry Lennox), on bringing in the Estimates, the memorandum was again quoted. Frederick Grey now wished that his memorandum and the submission of the Controller, to which it was an answer, should be laid before the House, so that it might be seen how little ground existed for quoting him in justification of what was said by the right hon. Gentleman. The memorandum was written in February of last year, before the Estimates were brought ID. It had reference solely to a proposal to build a paddle-wheel steamer, on the merits of which there was some difference of opinion. Sir Frederick Grey contended that in no wise could it be used in support of the general statement made last Session, or in any way as justifying the charges against the late Board. There never was

any difference of opinion between himself | service. Sir Frederick Grey was put in an and the Duke of Somerset as regarded the unfair position by its non-production. policy of building ships, or the condition in which the navy was at any time, and he said that any attempt to quote him as an authority for statements of such a nature was entirely unwarranted.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That there be laid before this House, a Copy of a Submission of the Comptroller of the Navy to the Board of Admiralty, and a Memorandum thereon by Admiral Sir Frederick Grey, on the building of Paddle-wheel Steamers, dated 1866." -(Mr. Shaw-Lefevre.)

SIR JOHN HAY said, there was no objection to produce Sir Frederick Grey's memorial itself if it were desired. It had already appeared in print. But the confi dential communications contained in the Controller's submission it would be extremely undesirable to lay before the House.

MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE said, he had no wish for the memorial without the submission of the Controller to which it formed an answer. On Sir Frederick Grey's part he entirely repudiated the construction which had been put upon that document.

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he felt compelled to resist the application. The memorandum was attached to confidential communications between the Controller and the Board of Admiralty on questions of public policy and referring to other matters. It would be extremely inconvenient for the public service that these papers should be produced. That was his only reason for resisting the Motion. Both in the debates in that House and in "another place" ample justice had been done to the Duke of Somerset and the late Board of Admi-" ralty.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, it was the universal rule that when a document was quoted by a Minister of the Crown the Government were bound to lay it on the table of the House. He should not press for any document the production of which was declared to be injurious to the public service; but he could not help expressing his surprise that in both Houses of Parliament a document should have been used in debate which it was now declared could not be produced.

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he feared he had not made himself understood. The memorandum was only a short one, but it was attached to correspondence of considerable length relating to matters of public policy which it was not desirable to produce, but without which it would be scarcely intelligible.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

OFFICES AND OATHS BILL-[BILL 7.] (Sir Colman O'Loghlen, Mr. Cogan, Sir John Gray.)

COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." (Sir Colman O'Loghlen.)

MR. NEWDEGATE said, he objected to proceeding with such an important Bill at that late hour (quarter past twelve.) That followed it (Transubstantiation, &c., Demeasure and the one which immediately claration Bill) involved important constitu tional questions which must be considered together, and it would be impossible properly to debate them at that hour. There specting it, and he thought it impossible were many Amendments on the paper rethe measure at that sitting. He should that they could make any progress with therefore move that the House do now adjourn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.' (Mr. Newdegate.)

MR. COGAN said, he hoped that his MR. CHILDERS said, that if that were hon. and learned Friend the Member for the case the document should not have Clare would be allowed to go into Combeen quoted. Towards the end of last Ses-mittee. After the lengthened debate and sion it was said that the present Board of Admiralty found the reserve in a state in which they did not expect to see it. That statement was challenged in "another place;" and in reply a minute of Sir Frederick Grey was quoted, which should not have been done if the document could not be produced without injury to the public

the exciting scenes which had already taken place, his hon. and learned Friend would be satisfied if the Bill were committed pro forma. As a matter of courtesy he hoped this would be conceded.

MR. GLADSTONE said, he had supported this Bill at every stage, and was still prepared to give it his best adhesion.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN said, that as the hon. Member for North Warwickshire objected to going into Committee on the Bill at present, and as the right hon. Member for South Lancashire recommended that he should not press his Motion, he would give notice of the Com-ject, and I hope the House will excuse me mittee on the Bill for that day week.