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4,000 to 10,000 miles, and in many in- it desirable, under these circumstances, stances, perhaps, with only five or six that 21 additional vessels of the smaller days' coal on board, he was afraid the classes should be built-namely, 3 sloops, squadron would be of but little assistance at 8 gunvessels, and 10 gunboats, which With regard to the would give us a total of 236, or 70 less the critical moment. amount of the Estimates, the Admiralty than in 1860. Perhaps it might be imawere called upon to justify the demands gined that the number of vessels of the for the extra £500,000 asked for the ser- smaller classes in 1860 was unnecessarily vice of the present year. It had already large; but having been Secretary in the been stated by the noble Lord the Secre- preceding year, he would state that the Hon. Gentlemen tary of the Admiralty, who had moved reverse was the case, and the number even the Navy Estimates in his absence, that then was insufficient. the whole of that £500,000 was required had talked about the number of our ships for building new ships; and the question, in comparison with that of other countherefore, was whether the Admiralty tries; but it had always been the policy could justify the proposal for so increas of England to maintain a commanding The It must be ad- fleet, greatly superior to that of other naing our present force. mitted on all hands that it would be im- tions, and that for obvious reasons. possible to send iron-clads all over the world hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen It said, "Look at the number of our men, as cruizers to protect our commerce. would be necessary to reserve the greater compared with the number in the French part of our iron-clads for the great poli- navy." He (Mr. Corry) might say look at tical stations-such as the Mediterranean, the number of soldiers which France had as the Channel, the East and West Indies, compared with England. The reason why and North America. What would be the France had more soldiers than England, use of a squadron of iron-clads in the Chi- and why England had more sailors than nese seas, where the work would be much France, was because the requirements of more satisfactorily performed by smaller the two countries were totally different. It vessels? In the event of war, if we had was absolutely necessary to the existence not a sufficient number of small vessels to of France that she should have a large protect it, our commerce would be open to military force; and, on the other hand, destruction by Alabamas to an extent that it was equally a necessity to England that would spread dismay over this country. she should be a great naval Power, and he A most distinguished French Admiral had hoped that she would always aim at mainremarked in a pamphlet many years ago, taining a commanding fleet. At that late that France must keep her corvettes and hour he would not further prolong the defrigates in hand for the purpose of sending bate, but should be happy to afford any them to distant stations at the first out- information which might be required on break of a war with England for the pur- the discussion of the separate Votes. He pose of stabbing her to the heart by at- hoped the Committee would pass the Vote tacking her commerce, and thus compel- in the hands of the Chairman before they ling her to make peace. In order to meet reported Progress. such a mode of attack we ought to maintain a considerable force of vessels of the smaller classes, so as to enable us to protect our commerce from such attempts. He found that the number of ships under the rank of frigates at the disposal of this country in 1860 was corvettes and sloops, 61; gunvessels and gunboats, 166; paddle sloops, 35; building-corvettes 20, gunvessels and gunboats 24, making a total of 306, whereas in 1867, the numbers are, corvettes and sloops 55, and gunvessels and gunboats 127, paddle sloops, 10; building, corvettes and sloops 6, gunvessels 17, making a total of 215, or 91 less than in 1860. The right hon. Gentleman the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir John Pakington) thought

MR. CHILDERS said, it was perfectly true that he and his hon. Friends who had spoken in that discussion, having held office as Civil Lords of the Admiralty, had nothing to do with the strength or disposition of the foreign squadrons; but that was precisely the reason why they had come forward on that occasion, for no one could taunt them with now suggesting a line of policy different from what they had formerly pursued. They had raised a discussion which he hoped would prove useful on a point of great national importance. The Committee was now asked to vote 67,300 men; but that number did not include the number of men to be employed in the troop ships. He therefore suggested that the Vote should be for the entire force

that would be brought under the provisions | wished to ask how it was, that so many of the Naval Discipline Act, which would temporary clerks having been discharged give 69,313 for the true total of the num- on account of the expense, the salary of ber of men to be voted. He begged to the private secretary to the First Lord had withdraw his Amendment. been increased from £300 to £507; and also, who he was [Cries of "Progress! and No, no!"]; and also why the chief clerk's and the chief instructor's salaries had been increased £100 each?

MR. KINNAIRD said, he hoped that the remarks of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre), respecting the British squadron at Valparaiso, would not be lost on the House, because the British merchants there had looked for protection from the British squadron; but it turned out that that squadron had not been strong enough to go into action, and the prestige of England suffered greatly in consequence. We should either maintain an adequate squadron in those waters or none at all.

MR. CORRY said, he considered the number of men proposed to be voted was correctly stated in the Estimate; but he had no objection to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member

for Pontefract if he wished to press it, although he thought it unnecessary. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to (2.) £1,900,952, Wages-["Progress, Progress!"]

MR. CORRY said, he hoped the Committee would allow him to proceed until they came to a disputed Vote. It was desir. able that as many Votes should be taken as possible, as it was uncertain when he should be able to take the Estimates again. LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he hoped the Committee would allow the next Vote to be taken, because it followed the number of men as a matter of course.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £1,241,614, Victuals and Clothing. Whereupon Question again proposed, "That 65,300 Men and Boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, including 16,200 Royal Marines."-(Mr. Childers.)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, that the objection raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman with reference to the private It was an apsecretary no longer existed. pointment by the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and as that right hon. Gentleman had ceased to hold the office of First Lord the private secretaryship ceased to exist. As to the two extra clerks, they were not really additions, inasmuch as they had formerly been employed as temporary clerks, and were now made permanent.

MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he thought the explanation was most unsatisfactory, as he considered it was rank jobbery that a First Lord should have appointed his son, who was not a naval man, to this position.

MR. OTWAY said, he saw that the three Naval Lords received £1,000 each; but by a note he found this included £300 a year for a house, so they appeared only in fact to get £700. Was this so?

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee,)-put, and negatived.

-

Original Question put, and agreed to.
House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

CANADA RAILWAY LOAN BILL-[BILL 99.] (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hunt.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £176,018, be"That the Bill be now read a second granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Salaries of time."-(Mr. Adderley.) the Officers and the Contingent Expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day

of March 1868."

MR. OTWAY moved to report Progress. MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would assent to the Motion, as it was too late at that hour (quarter past twelve o'clock) to raise a discussion on the Vote. He

MR. MONK said, he felt bound to record anew his protest against the passing of the measure. He did not look with dissatisfaction upon the Confederation; but he did not think that this country could properly be called upon to agree to the proposed guarantee.

MR. CRAWFORD was quite content to regard this Bill from an Imperial point

that he had ever told the House it must
agree to the Bill because it had sanctioned
the Confederation. On the contrary, he
had told hon. Members that they were
quit free to deal with the question, and
they had given leave to bring in the Bill
by a majority of 4 to 1.
Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, April 2, 1867.

MINUTES.]-Sat First in Parliament-The
Earl of Camperdown, after the Death of his
Father.

of view, and he thought that on this ground it was most important to this country to facilitate the construction of this railway. In the course of the previous debate the right hon. Member for Calne had said it would be absurd for us to think of communicating with Canada by way of Halifax, while the port of Portland in the State of Maine was open to us. But he thought it must have escaped the observation of the right hon. Gentleman that in using the port of Portland in the winter months, extending over nearly half the year, we did so entirely upon the sufferance of the people of the United States. This consent might at any time be withdrawn, and so long as the present protectionist policy was maintained by the United States, it would be for the interest of this country to secure admission for our exports to Canada without passing through a foreign territory. Then with regard to postal communication by a steamer arriving off Halifax and landing her mails, they would by means of this line reach the extreme west of Canada, as well as Minnesota and the Western States of the American Union, forty-eight hours sooner than they did at present vid New York. The 2d. now paid on every letter, and the ld. paid on newspapers, would also be saved by Canada, and the line would probably carry a great deal of the correspondence between this country and the far West. Lastly, it was of the utmost importance that, as Halifax was our great naval station in the Atlantic, means should THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in movbe secured of ready communication with the valuable coal mines of New Brunswick, time, said, that on the introduction of the ing that the Bill be now read the second which already competed at New York with the Pittsburg coal. Looking at the ques-able the Masters in the Judges' Chambers measure he stated its object to be to ention from a purely Imperial point of view, and not having himself the slightest pecuniary interest in British North America, he believed the construction of the railway would be a great advantage.

MR. SERJEANT GASELEE agreed that the reasons assigned by the hon. Member might be a good ground why the Canadians should make the line, but they afforded none why we should give the guarantee asked for; and he protested against the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) asking the House to assent to the Confederation Bill because it would not bind it to grant the guarantee, and then telling the House that the guarantee must be given because the Confederation had been sanctioned by Parliament. Such a course was calculated to mislead a young Member like himself. MR. ADDERLEY emphatically denied

PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-Sugar Duties *
(70).
Second Reading-Judges' Chambers (Despatch
of Business) (58); Criminal Lunatics (55).
Third Reading-Dublin University Professor-
ships (48), and passed.

*

JUDGES' CHAMBERS (DESPATCH OF
BUSINESS) BILL-(No. 58.)

(The Lord Chancellor.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

to transact business which was at present
thrown on the Judges to the great incon-
venience of the public.
his statement a noble and learned Lord
When he made
(Lord Cranworth) who had had great ex-
knew the practical inconvenience which
perience of the Superior Courts, and
the Bill was intended to remedy, said that
he entirely approved the measure; but
since then that noble and learned Lord had
appeal from the decision of the Masters in
suggested that it was desirable to have an

certain cases.

that suggestion, and he had since framed a He entirely agreed with Committee giving effect to the proposition. clause, which he proposed to move in

Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

CRIMINAL LUNATICS BILL-(No. 55.) (The Earl of Belmore.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

have a pernicious effect on the public mind. We were living in stirring and peculiar times, and it was impossible to shut our eyes to the fact that the educated and commercial classes were much more subject to nervous excitement and habits of mind and body that were likely to bring on desultory and dangerous actions than at any former period of our history. It should also be remembered that there was a manifest tendency in Courts of Justice to admit readily the plea of insanity, however grave the offence that was charged might be. Counsel were fond of plead ing insanity; medical men were easily found to maintain that plea; and juries, who felt themselves perplexed by the law and the facts of the case, were only too glad to get rid of the matter by giving a verdict that the crime was committed under the aberrations of insanity. The result was that in many instances the merest trifles of eccentricity committed at any former period of life were brought to bear at the trial, and were deemed sufficient to exonerate the criminal from the penalties of the law. He was then confined as a criminal lunatic during Her Majesty's pleasure; and in a short time, when he was either actually or apparently reMoved, "That the Bill be now read 2"." covered, and under the advice of medical -The Earl of Belmore.)

THE EARL OF BELMORE, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the Bill had been sent up to their Lordships by the House of Commons. As the law at present stood it was not in the power of the Secretary of State to order the discharge of any criminal lunatic, who being detained in custody during Her Majesty's pleasure, or who after conviction has been transferred to a lunatic asylum by order of the Secretary of State, or has after conviction been shown to be unfit for penal discipline. otherwise than absolutely. This Bill proposed to give to the Secretary of State power to discharge any such criminal lunatic on conditions binding on the person discharged, or on such other persons as the Secretary may think expedient. The Bill also enabled the Secretary of State to order the removal of any criminal lunatic to a county asylum on the expiration of his

sentence.

men, was restored to society. The conseTHE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, quences were very serious. The Commisthat he approved generally of the measure; sioners of Lunacy were generally consulted but the Bill contained one clause so impor- in these cases, and they invariably contant that it partook of the nature of a fined themselves to the testimony of principle, and might therefore fairly be the medical man, to the effect that, so far discussed upon the second reading. The as he could judge, the patient was not 5th clause provided that it should be law-likely to do harm to himself or injury to ful for the Secretary of State to discharge absolutely or conditionally any criminal lunatic. No doubt the Secretary of State had at present the absolute power of discharging a criminal lunatic. But he had not the power of discharging him conditionally. The conditions would probably be that the friends and relatives of such lunatic should undertake the charge of him. Now he (the Earl of Shaftesbury) was anxious to draw the attention of their Lordships to this clause, with a view of impressing upon the Secretary of State the necessity of great caution in the exercise of such powers; because the fact that the lunatic would be liberated, and would appear to be restored to society, would be known, while the conditions under which he was released would not be known. Now, if it should so happen that a dangerous lunatic were restored to society, it might

others. The Commissioners carefully abstained, and he thought on the best ground, from ever advising absolutely that a patient who had committed a grave crime should be restored to society. They had, however, made an exception in the case of crimes committed under puerperal mania, but only in cases where the woman was past child bearing. It was a very serious question whether criminal lunatics who had committed dreadful crimes should ever be restored to society; and it was very doubtful whether a patient who had manifested a suicidal or homicidal tendency could be safely restored to society. Recollecting the disturbing influences of society upon a patient who was restored to it, they could never be sure that he might not have a sudden access of passion or violence which might lead to a repetition of the act for which he was originally tried. There

Al

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY asked, what reasons had weighed-with the framers of the Bill when they inserted Clause 3, making the Act inapplicable to Ireland, and why some such Act was not thought necessary for Ireland?-because the asylum at Dundrum was very similar to that of Broadmoor? He noticed, also, that Clause 5 directed that any person who had been acquitted on the ground of insanity, and had thereon been ordered to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure, might be dealt with as a person whom the Secretary of State was empowered to discharge either absolutely or conditionally: was not this encroaching upon the prerogative of the Crown? Lunatics acquitted of a crime on the ground of insanity, and lunatics who had escaped trial on the same ground, were now confined during Her Majesty's pleasure, and could be liberated by Her Majesty on the advice of Her Ministers.

were a great number of those who were | liberated; but cases of that kind ought called lunatics who had full powers of cal- to be of exceedingly rare occurrence. culating the probable consequences of any though all desired to see those afflicted act they might contemplate, and who were with lunacy restored to perfect health, the open to deterrent influences of various security of society at large was even more kinds. If these deterrent influences were important, and he had said what he had removed from them, they might easily be upon the subject in order to impress upon induced by a sense of impunity to commit their Lordships the imperative necessity acts which they might otherwise not have which existed for the greatest caution in thought of doing. In proof of this, he might carrying out the provisions of the Bill. mention that on the last occasion upon which he visited Bethlehem Hospital he put this very question to the eminent medical man who presided over that establishment. Dr. Helps told him that perhaps twenty men then present in the room had, in effect, said to him, "If we get out we will take your life, and no harm can happen to us, because we have been examined and declared to be lunatics, and the utmost possible punishment we can incur is re-confinement here." Time was when these deterrent influences to which he was referring were stronger than they were now. He was far from complaining of the altered state of things at Bethlehem; but there was no doubt that formerly the mere mention of Bethlehem Hospital and its horrors were sufficient to set the imagination of lunatics to work; they magnified the horrors of the place, and numbers of them were thereby deterred from the commission of acts which would result in their confinement there. But now the question of simulation had to be considered. He believed that in many cases simulated madness had preceded the commission of a crime in order that the consequences might be escaped; beyond doubt many more cases of simulated madness occurred after the commission of a crime with a similar object; and as hospitals for lunatics were improved and made more comfortable, criminals would simulate madness in the hope that they would exchange the hardships of gaol life for a home in one of the most happy, healthy, and beautiful spots on the face of the earth. He could conceive of nothing more enjoyable to a man of few purposes than life at Broadmoor, where the inmates had at their command spacious assembly-rooms for lectures and entertainments, billiard-rooms, pleasure-gardens, and admirable diet, and kind superintendence. All that was, of course, perfectly right when intended for persons who were suffering by the visitation of Providence ; but it did entail upon the Secretary of State the utmost possible caution. He would not say that lunatics never should be

THE EARL OF BELMORE said, that he was unable at the moment to give a positive answer to the first question put by the noble Earl; but his impression was that the Bill dealt with many Acts which did not extend to Ireland, and that it was thought prudent to limit the scope of this also. With regard to the second question, he did not think the 5th clause would be found to encroach on the prerogative of the Crown.

LORD WESTBURY was understood to say that the prerogative of the Crown could not be taken away without express words to that effect; no such express words were in the clause, but it appeared to invite the Queen to confer upon a Secretary of State powers now exclusively possessed by the Crown.

Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

THE NEW GOVERNMENT OFFICES.

NOTICE.

LORD REDESDALE gave Notice that on an early day he would call attention to

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