pay and provisions for these men this year | number that had been built within the was £184,528, and the Vote for civil su- same period. Now, it appeared by a Reperintendence, &c., amounted to £40,000, turn he had from 1860 up to last August, so that £224,528 per year might be saved when the present Board of Admiralty without really affecting the efficiency of came into office, 162 vessels had been the navy, for he understood that these broken up or sold out of the navy, and ships were of no use whatever, either for 140 were added. Of those removed there the prevention of smuggling or as training were 45 paddle-wheel steamers, 87 gunships. There was also a large expenditure boats and gunvessels, 11 sloops and corupon the training ships, which he was told vettes, 11 line-of-battle ships and frigates. were of very little value, as they were Of those added there were 14 paddle rarely fully manned, and their anchors steamers, 28 gunboats, 24 sloops and were seldom weighed. Then with regard corvettes, 19 frigates, 15 line-of-battle to Greenwich Hospital, the accounts ships, and 30 iron-clads. This showed a showed a constant increase, the charge decrease of 52 gunboats and 31 paddle for medical officers and allowances to steamers, and an increase of 34 sloops, them this year being £3,280 against corvettes, and frigates, and 30 iron-elads. £1,869 last year. It appeared to him that The real efficiency of the navy was therein all these matters, to which the public fore very greatly increased. At the same had not paid much attention, there had time, he admitted that there had been a been a continual and gradual increase, falling off in the number of gunboats. He and it was principally in these small items found that we had altogether 122 vessels of hundreds that the public money was under 1,000 tons in commission, which squandered away. were well described by the noble Lord as "cut and run vessels. Of these, 102 were screw steamers, and 20 paddle steamers; 16 were on the North-American station, 29 in China, 9 in the Mediterranean, 7 in the East Indies and at the Cape, 7 on the South East Coast of America, 16 on the West Coast of Africa, 7 in the Pacific MR. SHAW LEFEVRE suggested that the discussion with regard to the dockyard management and the Admiralty organization might be postponed until the system of re-organization promised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was before the House. Before he adverted to the subject introduced by the hon. Member-91 out of 122 being on foreign stations. for Pontefract, he would first say a few If, as his hon. Friend the Member for words on the explanation given by the Pontefract had argued, it was possible to right hon. Baronet the Member for Droit- diminish the force of our foreign squadwich with respect to the state in which he rons, there would be the less necessity for found the navy when he entered office. increasing the number of this class of He regretted that the right hon. Baronet vessels. Upon the question of the policy did not make that explanation a little of maintaining these squadrons he did not earlier. A misapprehension had been mean at that late hour to follow his hon. allowed to exist for several months; for Friend; but he would venture to say one it now appeared that the right hon. Baro- or two words with reference to two of net did not refer to the general state of these squadrons-that in North America the navy, but to small vessels only. The and the China squadron. The North-Amehon. Member for Pontefract had referred rican squadron had been increased from to the foreign squadrons, and upon exami- 14 vessels in 1862 to 41 in 1864, during nation it would be found that the increase the Civil War in America; it had now been in the Estimates of the present year was reduced to 29 vessels; but as the American mainly due to the small class of vessels navy had been reduced to a peace footing, which the Board of Admiralty proposed he thought the time had now come when to build. It was intended to build thirty- our force in that part of the world might three of these vessels, and the cost of them be safely reduced to what it was in 1862 could not be less than £700,000. He sug-14 vessels. If we went to war with gested that the building of some of those vessels should be postponed, so that a portion of the expense might be thrown on another year. The right hon. Gentle man opposite had referred to the number of vessels broken up and sold during the last six years; but he did not state the America, which no hon. Gentleman anticipated, hardly any of these vessels would be fit to cope with the Monitors that would be brought against them on the coasts of the United States. We should have to recall nearly the whole of them, or supplement them with vessels of vessels of which we had heard so much, a very different kind. Again, the China | Governments, and ought not to be decided squadron had been doubled within the last by the Admiral on the spot. If that were twelve years. Its efficiency was also very rightly decided, for what purpose did we greatly increased by the substitution of maintain so large a fleet there? The First steamers for sailing vessels. No doubt Lord of the Admiralty had asserted that the our trade had vastly increased during the concentration of our squadrons nearer home same period; but he thought the time would alarm European Powers, and lead to had come when we should endeavour to increased activity in the building of ships on secure the co-operation of America, Ger- their part. But surely that was the best evimany, and France against the pirates. dence that such a concentration would give The Chinese Government should also us greater power both for defence and be required to pay for keeping down offence, and would therefore be an advanpirates. Piracy could not, in fact, be put tageous step. There would be no danger down externally; it was a disease, and to the country in a reduction of the numarose very much from the character and ber of men. He had during last autumn action of the Chinese Government itself; visited the American dockyards, and he and it was by making the Government feel could confirm the statement made by his the responsibilities of its position by com- hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, as to pelling it to fulfil its international obliga- the reduction of the American navy. There tions, that the best prospect lay of putting was absolutely nothing going on in the down piracy. Objections had been made naval yards of that country, with regard to the concentration and reductions pro-to the production of that class of fast posed by his hon. Friend. The hon. Member for Liverpool had stated that one of the principal benefits arising from these foreign squadrons was the training of the men and officers, and the instruction of officers in International Law. But these squadrons were very often stationary; they very seldom came together for the purpose of squadron exercise. Besides, the advantages of the training referred to would be equally or better gained by a flying squadron. And as to training officers in International Law, if that could for a moment be considered as a reason for maintaining these expensive squadrons, it was to be observed that it was daily becoming of less importance in consequence of the improvement in the means of communication, which rendered it unnecessary for officers to act upon their own responsibility. The great point of his hon. Friend's observations was to effect greater concentration of our force, and thus, while effecting a considerable reduction of force and expenditure, an increase would be gained both for purposes of offence and defence. What occurred at Valparaiso showed how little protection a fleet could give to British property. In that case our Admiral in command of the fleet had remained as a spectator while the property of British merchants was destroyed by the bombardment of Spanish vessels. In the opinion of the Government he had acted rightly; because to interfere would have been equivalent to a declaration of war with Spain-and if any wrong was done it should be the subject of direct negotiations between the two "During the past year the operations of the navy yards have been reduced to the lowest point consistent with the public interest. On several vessels work has been altogether suspended, and necessary to enable the contractors for the steam on others only so much has been done as was machinery to place portions of their engines in the hulls. Six vessels of the class intended for high speed have been launched, and also three others, in which the steam power has been someSteam machinery for twelve vessels of the classes here referred to is in an advanced condition, and the Department is under contracts made during the war to provide the vessels in which these engines are to be placed. It has, however, been considered advantageous under the circumstances, there being no pressing necessity for this class of vessels since hostilities have ceased, to make temporary arrangements for storing the machinery and postpone the construction of the hulls. During the year, the force in the navy yards has been principally engaged in placing in efficient condition the vessels which had been almost constantly employed during the war, and but very little progress has been made upon the hulls of what reduced in order to increase the armament. new vessels." He could say from his own observation that six vessels of the larger type of 3,000 tons had been built. Three of them had been tried. The first had been rejected because it did not come up to the speed promised. The second also did not come up to the speed promised. As the third vessel steamed at the rate of 12 knots an hour he supposed that it must be called a fast vessel; but, at the same time, its capacity for stowage | which the naval power was to be distriwas but small. It should also be borne buted was a Cabinet question, and depended in mind that the Americans had no really good sea-going iron-clad vessels; and therefore it was the less necessary for us to build vessels to cope with them since we had vessels like the Warrior and Black Prince, with which the Americaus could scarcely hope to cope. He would conclude by saying that the navies of France and of America need create no alarm whatever in this country; and therefore any reduction in the naval service which we might make would not expose us to be taken at a disadvantage. MR. CORRY said, that the questions that had been raised that evening were of great importance, but they were approaching the hour when the patience of Committees usually became exhausted; and therefore he hoped the Committee would not think he was treating them with want of respect if he confined his remarks to the most material points which have been referred to, reserving further explanations for a future day. In the first place, he must remark that he thought it would be more convenient if hon. Members confined their attention to the general policy of the administration in the preliminary discussion which was usual on the first Vote, and abstained from going into details with reference to particular subjects that might be much more advantageously discussed at a future stage. When the particular Votes to which those details referred came on for discussion, he and his Colleagues would be most happy to give every explanation that might be desired of them. With regard to the question of ships upon foreign stations which had been raised the other night by the hon. Member for Pontefract, and which had been again referred to that evening by the hon. Member for Halifax, he might observe that it was singular enough that this criticism upon the subject of the distribution of the fleet had proceeded solely from three former Civil Lords of the Admiralty. He was the last person who would wish to speak disrespectfully of Civil Lords, since he himself had been a Civil Lord for five or six times as long as the duration of the service at the Admiralty of any of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. But from his own experience during that time he was enabled to state that upon one point the advice of the Civil Lord never was asked, and that was as to the distribution of Her Majesty's ships. The manner in upon considerations with which even the Lords of the Admiralty themselves were sometimes unacquainted, and which were kept within the bosom of the Cabinet. The Admiralty implicitly obeyed the instructions they received from the Cabinet upon this point. This was, of course, not a party question; still, it was singular that during the last nine or ten years the naval force upon foreign stations was much greater under Whig Governments than it had been under Conservative Governments. Thus, in 1858, when a Whig Government was in office, the number of men upon foreign stations was 28,657, whereas, in 1859, when his right hon. Friend Sir John Pakington prepared the Estimates, the number was reduced to 24,138; the average number between 1860 to 1866, when hon. Gentlemen opposite prepared the Estimates was 33,153, while, during the present year, it was only 24,560. Therefore, the present Government could not be accused of acting very extravagantly in this respect. The hon. Member for Halifax had laughed at the idea of the Foreign Minister directing the Admiralty; but the demands for ships for foreign stations had been generally irresistible, and if the Foreign Minister and the Cabinet said that one, two, five, or ten vessels were to go to a certain station the Admiralty must send them. It must be recollected that the ships on foreign stations did great service in acting as the police of the seas, and if they were withdrawn the greatest loss would fall upon our commerce, especially in the Chinese seas. It would be a most unsatisfactory thing were eight or ten of our fine merchant vessels to be burnt or plundered in consequence of our leaving the police of the seas to the care of the Chinese, which was one of the suggestions that had been made. He did not think that such a policy would be approved by the nation generally. The hon. Member for Pontefract had indicated the other night a scheme for maintaining a flying squadron at Lisbon, instead of distributing our force on the different stations, so that at the flash of the electric telegraph it might be sent to any part of the world in which its presence might be required. That would, undoubtedly, be a good plan if the vessels could also be sent by telegraph wherever they were wanted; but as the ships might have to go from 4,000 to 10,000 miles, and in many instances, perhaps, with only five or six days' coal on board, he was afraid the squadron would be of but little assistance at the critical moment. With regard to the amount of the Estimates, the Admiralty were called upon to justify the demands for the extra £500,000 asked for the service of the present year. It had already been stated by the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty, who had moved the Navy Estimates in his absence, that the whole of that £500,000 was required for building new ships; and the question, therefore, was whether the Admiralty could justify the proposal for so increas ing our present force. It must be admitted on all hands that it would be impossible to send iron-clads all over the world as cruizers to protect our commerce. It would be necessary to reserve the greater part of our iron-clads for the great political stations-such as the Mediterranean, the Channel, the East and West Indies, and North America. What would be the use of a squadron of iron-clads in the Chinese seas, where the work would be much more satisfactorily performed by smaller vessels? In the event of war, if we had not a sufficient number of small vessels to protect it, our commerce would be open to destruction by Alabamas to an extent that would spread dismay over this country. A most distinguished French Admiral had remarked in a pamphlet many years ago, that France must keep her corvettes and frigates in hand for the purpose of sending them to distant stations at the first outbreak of a war with England for the purpose of stabbing her to the heart by attacking her commerce, and thus compelling her to make peace. In order to meet such a mode of attack we ought to maintain a considerable force of vessels of the smaller classes, so as to enable us to protect our commerce from such attempts. He found that the number of ships under the rank of frigates at the disposal of this country in 1860 was corvettes and sloops, 61; gunvessels and gunboats, 166; paddle sloops, 35; building-corvettes 20, gunvessels and gunboats 24, making a total of 306, whereas in 1867, the numbers are, corvettes and sloops 55, and gunvessels and gunboats 127, paddle sloops, 10; building, corvettes and sloops 6, gunvessels 17, making a total of 215, or 91 less than in 1860. The right hon. Gentleman the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir John Pakington) thought The it desirable, under these circumstances, that 21 additional vessels of the smaller classes should be built-namely, 3 sloops, 8 gunvessels, and 10 gunboats, which would give us a total of 236, or 70 less than in 1860. Perhaps it might be imagined that the number of vessels of the smaller classes in 1860 was unnecessarily large; but having been Secretary in the preceding year, he would state that the reverse was the case, and the number even then was insufficient. Hon. Gentlemen had talked about the number of our ships in comparison with that of other countries; but it had always been the policy of England to maintain a commanding fleet, greatly superior to that of other nations, and that for obvious reasons. hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen said, "Look at the number of our men, compared with the number in the French navy." He (Mr. Corry) might say look at the number of soldiers which France had as compared with England. The reason why France had more soldiers than England, and why England had more sailors than France, was because the requirements of the two countries were totally different. It was absolutely necessary to the existence of France that she should have a large military force; and, on the other hand, it was equally a necessity to England that she should be a great naval Power, and he hoped that she would always aim at maintaining a commanding fleet. At that late hour he would not further prolong the debate, but should be happy to afford any information which might be required on the discussion of the separate Votes. He hoped the Committee would pass the Vote in the hands of the Chairman before they reported Progress. MR. CHILDERS said, it was perfectly true that he and his hon. Friends who had spoken in that discussion, having held office as Civil Lords of the Admiralty, had nothing to do with the strength or disposition. of the foreign squadrons; but that was precisely the reason why they had come forward on that occasion, for no one could taunt them with now suggesting a line of policy different from what they had formerly pursued. They had raised a discussion which he hoped would prove useful on a point of great national importance. The Committee was now asked to vote 67,300 men; but that number did not include the number of men to be employed in the troop ships. He therefore suggested that the Vote should be for the entire force that would be brought under the provisions | wished to ask how it was, that so many of the Naval Discipline Act, which would temporary clerks having been discharged give 69,313 for the true total of the num- on account of the expense, the salary of ber of men to be voted. He begged to the private secretary to the First Lord had withdraw his Amendment. been increased from £300 to £507; and also, who he was [Cries of "Progress! and No, no!"]; and also why the chief clerk's and the chief instructor's salaries had been increased £100 each? MR. KINNAIRD said, he hoped that the remarks of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre), respecting the British squadron at Valparaiso, would not be lost on the House, because the British merchants there had looked for protection from the British squadron; but it turned out that that squadron had not been strong enough to go into action, and the prestige of England suffered greatly in consequence. We should either maintain an adequate squadron in those waters or none at all. MR. CORRY said, he considered the number of men proposed to be voted was correctly stated in the Estimate; but he had no objection to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract if he wished to press it, although he thought it unnecessary. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to (2.) £1,900,952, Wages-["Progress, Progress!"] MR. CORRY said, he hoped the Committee would allow him to proceed until they came to a disputed Vote. It was desir. able that as many Votes should be taken as possible, as it was uncertain when he should be able to take the Estimates again. LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he hoped the Committee would allow the next Vote to be taken, because it followed the number of men as a matter of course. Vote agreed to. (3.) £1,241,614, Victuals and Clothing. Whereupon Question again proposed, "That 65,300 Men and Boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, including 16,200 Royal Marines."-(Mr. Childers.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £176,018, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Salaries of the Officers and the Contingent Expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868." MR. OTWAY moved to report Progress. MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would assent to the Motion, as it was too late at that hour (quarter past twelve o'clock) to raise a discussion on the Vote. He LORD HENRY LENNOX said, that the objection raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman with reference to the private secretary no longer existed. It was an appointment by the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and as that right hon. Gentleman had ceased to hold the office of First Lord the private secretaryship ceased to exist. As to the two extra clerks, they were not really additions, inasmuch as they had formerly been employed as temporary clerks, and were now made permanent. MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he thought the explanation was most unsatisfactory, as he considered it was rank jobbery that a First Lord should have appointed his son, who was not a naval man, to this position. MR. OTWAY said, he saw that the three Naval Lords received £1,000 each; but by a note he found this included £300 a year for a house, so they appeared only in fact to get £700. Was this so? Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee,)-put, and negatived. Original Question put, and agreed to. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday. CANADA RAILWAY LOAN BILL-[BILL 99.] (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hunt.) SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Adderley.) MR. MONK said, he felt bound to record anew his protest against the passing of the measure. He did not look with dissatisfaction upon the Confederation; but he did not think that this country could properly be called upon to agree to the proposed guarantee. MR. CRAWFORD was quite content to regard this Bill from an Imperial point |