Senator LA FOLLETTE. The bushy-haired fellow who wears glasses. Mr. GIRDLER. I shook hands with a few of them that I went out for lunch with that I had never seen before, to the best of my knowledge. Senator LA FOLLETTE. This is a little of Mr. Torbic's testimony, one of the Aliquippa alumni, who was being examined about $500 which he gave to somebody whose name he could not remember. I was examining him on one of these $1,000 blind vouchers; and then he finally said that he wanted to be frank with me, and he explained how this man had contacted him during the strike and said he had hot tips, and so forth, and he told of meeting him, and he said, "Nevertheless, you owe me some money"—that is, this man, he owed some money to. I asked him how much I owed him, and he said well, for services of that kind, let me see. Then he went back and thought and he said, "Well, from June until September, that is three months or a little bit better," and he said "you ought to give $500 a month." I said "$500 a month for what?" He said "for the information I gave you." So I told him I could not do anything for him, and he let it go at that. Then he contacted me a few days later and said that he was going to bring suit against me, and I will be frank with you, Senator, knowing that your committee was working on things, we did not want anybody to know that we had any stool-pigeons. I did not think it would get to where it did, and to settle the matter and settle it quietly, I gave the man $1,000 in order not to say anything about it. That was one of the blind vouchers Mr. Williams approved. Senator LA FOLLETTE. No; I was simply prompted to read that to you when you said that as a result of this committee's investigation, you had been looking this situation over. Mr. GIRDLER. I said I had been looking what situation over? Mr. GIRDLER. Of course, I don't know about this man that Mr. Torbic gave $500 to. I don't know what he was doing for Mr. Torbic. Was that testified? Senator LA FOLLETTE. I think you would be very much interested to read all of the testimony about it, and I do not want to take the time now. Mr. GIRDLER. I am so far behind now, I doubt if I ever catch up to it. Senator. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Well, Mr. GIRDLER (interposing). I am more interested in what we are going to do in the future than these old things. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Well, the past is just a prologue, you know, to the future. Mr. Frank Moore. TESTIMONY OF FRANK L. MOORE (The witness was sworn by Senator La Follette.) Senator LA FOLLETTE. What is your full name? Mr. MOORE. Frank L. Moore. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How do you spell your last name? Mr. MOORE, M-o-o-r-e. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What is your occupation? Mr. MOORE. I don't have any at the present time. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Have you ever worked in the steel industry? Mr. MOORE. All my life. Senator LA FOLLETTE. In what capacity? Mr. MOORE. From a catcher helper, from a catcher in a tin house, up to the superintendent's job. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Where did you have a superintendent's job? Mr. MOORE. Bethlehem, Sparrows Point. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Where else have you worked? What other corporations have you worked for? Mr. MOORE. United States Steel, Republic, Bethlehem. Senator LA FOLLETTE. When were you employed by Republic? Mr. MOORE. 1933 to 1936. Senator LA FOLLETTE. In what district? Mr. MOORE. The Buffalo district. Senator LA FOLLETTE. In what department of the steel corporation did you work? Mr. MOORE. Police department. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How long were you with the police department in the Buffalo district? Mr. MOORE. Almost 3 years. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What years? Mr. MOORE. 1933 to 1936. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you work in the police department exclusively while you were with Republic, or did you have other work there? Mr. MOORE. I started on the bar mill. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How did you get transferred to the police department? Mr. MOORE. Well, the superintendent of the bar mill transferred me to Mr. Williams. Senator LA FOLLETTE. When did you first meet Mr. Williams? Senator LA FOLLETTE. How well do you know him? Mr. MOORE. Well, I know him from 1933 to 1936. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you see him frequently? Mr. MOORE. Well, I saw him most anytime he came to Buffalo. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you, in the course of your employment in Buffalo or elsewhere, become acquainted with any of the supervisory police officials aside from Mr. Williams and your captain in Buffalo? Mr. MOORE. You mean outside men? Senator LA FOLLETTE. I mean men from other districts. Did you meet any of them? Mr. MOORE. Oh, yes. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Who do you know in the police department of Republic who are captains or at the head of the police department other than someone you knew in Buffalo? Mr. MOORE. I know Hannan and Gilroy. That is the only one, I think, that were captains at that time when I was there. There may be other captains now that I know. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Where did you work for United States Steel? Mr. MOORE. Connellsville, Pa., Morgantown, W. Va., and Gary, Ind. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever work for Jones & Laughlin? Mr. MOORE. No. Senator LA FOLLETTE. While you were employed at the police department in Buffalo, in what capacity did you work? Were you a patrolman all the time? Mr. MOORE. I was a patrolman for about 3 months, then a sergeant for about 6 months, and then a lieutenant. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Who was your immediate superior in Buffalo at that time? Mr. MOORE. Captain Wheeler was the first, and then Captain Todd. Senator LA FOLLETTE. When did you work with Captain Todd as your superior? Mr. MOORE. I think he came there in 1934. Senator LA FOLLETTE. As a member of the police force in Buffalo, did you or did you not receive any special police training? Mr. MOORE. We were trained at the Buffalo city police school. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What were your duties in your position as a patrolman? Mr. MOORE. To patrol the plant and get all of the information we possibly could from all employees on anything. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What kind of information were you instructed to get from employees? Mr. MOORE. Well, I don't understand what kind of information you would mean. We were instructed to get any kind of information that we thought would be detrimental to the company. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What did that include? Mr. MOORE. That included union activity and such as that, or a man that was not working-a man that was laying down on his job. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Why did you understand that information concerning a man's union activities would be detrimental to the company? Mr. MOORE. Well, that is what we were told. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Who told you that? Mr. MOORE. Our captain or the chief, Williams. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did Mr. Williams ever tell you that it was detrimental to the company's interests for a man to be active in a union? Mr. MOORE. He did. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did he explain why that was detrimental, as he saw it, from the company's standpoint? Mr. MOORE. No; I don't think he did. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How did you go about getting this information on employees as to their labor activities or affiliations? Mr. MOORE. Well, we would work our way into the confidence of the men, or we would send out someone to hunt up these men that was at the union meetings. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What do you mean you "would send out men to hunt up these men that had been in union meetings"? Mr. MOORE. We would go out to these union meetings. Mr. MOORE. No; not me. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Members of the police force? Mr. MOORE. Yes; members of the police force were sent out, and also outsiders. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How could members of the police force, who were well known to the employees, get into a union meeting? Mr. MOORE. Well, it is an open meeting; all open meetings. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you obtain any information on what went on at the closed meetings of the union while you were in Buffalo with Kepublic? Mr. MOORE. Well, I never got any information but we had men out to get it. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How did they get it, if you know? Mr. MOORE. Well, the one man I know was a good friend of one of the presidents, and he run around with him. That is the way he got it, into the closed meetings. Senator LA FOLLETTE. You said he was president. What was he president of? Mr. MOORE. President of one of the locals. Mr. PATTON. I did not understand him to say. He says he was a friend of one of the presidents, Senator. Senator LA FOLLETTE. I asked him what the man was president of. Mr. PATTON. I beg your pardon. Senator LA FOLLETTE. At least, that is what I intended to ask him. He said he was a friend of one of the presidents, and I did not know what the man was president of, and I was trying to find out if he knew. Mr. PATTON. All right. Mr. MOORE. Well, he really was an organizer also. Senator LA FOLLETTE. You mean the man who got the information? Mr. MOORE. No. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Or the friend? Mr. MOORE. The man that was president of the local was really an organizer too. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you know what the man's name was who got this information? Mr. MOORE. I do not. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you know of your own knowledge that he got it? Mr. MOORE. Yes, I know that he got it. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How did you know that he got it? Senator LA FOLLETTE. What was the nature of your duties as sergeant and lieutenant? Mr. MOORE. Well, to see that the men kept on duty, placed them at certain places, and give them instructions before they went out. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever at any time when you were sergeant or lieutenant give any instructions that had to do with labor espionage? Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What instructions would you give or did give? Mr. MOORE. Well, we would send men out to some of these union meetings, open meetings. Maybe one of our patrolmen or maybe two of them. Senator LA FOLLETTE. You mentioned that you had some men outside doing this type of work. How were instructions gotten to them, do you know? Mr. MOORE. They would call up the captain about once a day or maybe once every 2 days or something like that. It was according to what kind of assignment they were on. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What was done with this information when it was obtained, if you know? Mr. MOORE. I don't know. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever receive any of it? Mr. MOORE. No. Senator LA FOLLETTE. As lieutenant or sergeant? Mr. MOORE. No. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Were any of the reports, to your knowledge, made by telephone? Mr. MOORE. No. Senator LA FOLLETTE. I thought you said they called up the captain. Did they call him up personally or by phone? Mr. MOORE. Well, lots of times he would go out and call up, and lots of times they would call him up personally. Senator LA FOLLETTE. What methods were used, if any, to obtain information inside the plant? Mr. MOORE. What kind of information? Senator LA FOLLETTE. Information of this nature you have been describing. Mr. MOORE. Why, to get in the confidence of the men working. and they would talk about themselves. While listening over the telephone. Senator LA FOLLETTE. How could you listen over the telephone. Mr. MOORE. Tap the wires. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Tap whose wires? Mr. MOORE. Anybody's, all of them. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you mean to tell me that the wires were tapped in this plant of the supervisory and important officials? |