enough, they generally get it even though the officials don't care to do anything about it.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I hope that you will find time to read the portions of the testimony about citizens' committees.

Mr. GIRDLER. I will try to.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I call your attention to exhibit 4784, which is a statement to your employees issued over your signature, and by that I mean printed signature, under date of June 15, 1937. 0 the first page, two paragraphs down, appears the following [read ing]:

On Thursday, June 10th, the plant at Monroe, Michigan, was started and is operating at normal capacity. The opening followed an election held by the Mayor, in which 856 men voted to return to work and 20 voted to continue to strike.

Movements similar to that which resulted in opening the Monroe plan are spreading rapidly in other affected communities. Employees kept from their jobs by mobs of armed pickets many of whom have never worked for Republic and citizens, outraged by this defiance of law and decency by the C. I. O. are joining together to insist that law enforcement agencies compe the union to cease unlawful picketing.

Do you know whether the movements of citizens referred to ir this excerpt from your statement which I have just read, developed in the communities in which the companies had plants that were struck?

Mr. GIRDLER. I would think that they developed in communities where they had the trouble. I don't know anything about how they developed, or the modus operandi.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Is it your belief that these movements arise spontaneously, Mr. Girdler?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, someone has to start everything that is started.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I will agree with that, but in a general way, do you think that they are prompted and need organization. or whether they grow up more or less from the reaction of large groups of people?

Mr. GIRDLER. I think they generally start because a lot of men want to work, and they talk to their friends and their neighbor and the merchants and the other people in the communities, and demand law and order. The main trouble in all of this business is that the men cannot work when they want to work because law and order is not enforced.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I refer again to exhibit 3866, and in order that there might be no confusion about it, I will read the title of the memorandum again: "Memorandum on community public information programs to combat radical tendencies and present the constructive story of industry." On the letterhead of the National Association of Manufacturers, in the third paragraph, this is said:

Industry cannot be content, however, with negative victories won through the tactical errors of the leaders of discontent. Machinery should be set up in every community to cope with the issue of unscrupulous unionism and radicalism both in its immediate aspects and its long-range potentialities.

Does not this memorandum indicate that as a result of the educational program as they term it of the National Association of Manufacturers, machinery will be established in different communities to operate in labor disputes?

Mr. GIRDLER. You are going pretty far afield for me. I don't know what would result from that paragraph. I don't think the National Association of Manufacturers had anything at all to do with any back to work movements or anything of that kind that developed in the communities where our plants were on strike. I don't know, but I don't think so.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Well, the record will speak for itself on that point. However, the term "machinery" would seem to indicate something more than just a spontaneous movement that grew like Topsy, doesn't it?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know what the man that wrote that meant by "machinery." The only machinery you need is for the authorities to enforce law and order. That is all you need anywhere.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether at any of the meetings that you attended there was any discussion of the effect of this program upon the impending strike? Mr. GIRDLER. No; that does not refresh my memory at all. I don't remember anything about this. I don't remember ever seeing it before. Maybe I did.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I call your attention to a pamphlet entitled "Industrial Strife and the Third Party," which appears in the record of this committee as exhibit 3873. This pamphlet is unsigned, but it was identified finally by the National Association of Manufacturers as having been prepared by them. The first paragraph on the first page reads:

INDUSTRIAL STRIFE AND "THE THIRD PARTY"

The breakdown of law and order in many communities as a result of the impasse between labor and industry has caused a third party to interfere in the struggle. This party is composed of merchants, professional men, farmers, white-collar workers and other groups which are known as the Public. This activity has been expressed principally in two directions; a spirit of Vigilantism in different areas of the country, which seeks to maintain Law and Order where Chaos and Anarchy threaten: and, secondly, the formation of Citizens Committees in communities afflicted with labor difficulties in a development which must be given cognizance. An analysis of the course of events in this field since the beginning of this year reveals that this movement has been chiefly centered in three States of our Union, namely, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

Would you agree with that statement or not, namely, that there are two outstanding developments in the so-called Little Steel strike; first, the development of a spirit of vigilantism, and second, the formation of citizens' committees?

Mr. GIRDLER. No; I don't know enough about it to agree with that. I say, I do not know very much about this citizens' committee, and I don't know anything about the vigilantes.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever see this pamphlet which was distributed?

89562-39-pt. 34——7

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't think I did.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I will show you an original copy of it. might recall it to your memory.

Mr. GIRDLER. (examining). I don't think I did. I don't think ever saw it.

Mr. WHITE. I never saw it, Senator.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. To your knowledge, in your judgment as result of that knowledge, do you think vigilantism played any p in the 1937 strike?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't think it did.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you think citizens' committees play a part?

Mr. GIRDLER. Citizens' committees? I don't know whether y designated them properly or not, but I would say this, that I thin the citizens, the substantial citizens of various-of these communitie finally got some semblance of law and order.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I think my designation is probably as go as any other. Of course, they had different names, but most of the had the name citizens' committee. I am referring to committees li the Johnstown Citizens' Committee of the Law and Order Leag in some Ohio town.

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know anything about those. I read a litt stuff about the Johnstown troubles, but very little.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I should like to refer to another page in the pamphlet which was gotten out as described:

Ohio: In the state of Ohio the steel strike has engendered a bitter hostil towards the C. I. O. The situation in the Mahoning Valley is an excelle illustration of the fact that when the scope of industrial conflict is extende and affects other groups than the original disputants, ire resentment and feeling develops to such a point that outside forces become the determini: factor.

Shopkeeper, local business men, professional men and farmers in Ohio fe that the prolonged strike had seriously hurt them. Supplementing this grow were many steel workers who desired to work but were prevented by a strongh organized and militant minority. The valley is today seething with the spirit of vigilantism which has failed to materialize in a formal organization, on because there has been no pressing need for this as yet.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Would you say that this paragraph which I have just read seems to welcome or encourage the spirit of vigilant

ism?

Mr. GIRDLER. I suppose it would encourage the spirit of vigilantism.. There are several things in that statement that aren't correct, I mean as referring to the plant where we had strikes.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Which ones?

Mr. GIRDLER (reading):

Many steel workers who desired to work but were prevented by a strongly organized and militant minority.

They were prevented from returning to work by tremendous hordes of coal miners, rubber workers, and bums.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Regardless of how you characterize them, either as in the statement, the pamphlet, or as you have just characterized them, the statement of fact was correct, was it not?

Mr. GIRDLER. That the "valley is today seething with a spirit of vigilantism."

I don't know whether it was seething or not.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. No; you misunderstand my question, Mr. Girdler. I meant that regardless of how you characterized the groups which prevented people from working, whether you called them a militant minority as the pamphlet does or whether you characterized them as you did in your response, the fact remains the same, does it not, that somebody prevented people who wanted to work from working?

Mr. GIRDLER. Absolutely.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. In that respect the statement of fact in the pamphlet was not incorrect, was it?

Mr. GIRDLER. The statement of fact that they were prevented by a strongly organized and militant minority was what I said was incorrect.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. In order that the record may show at this point, this pamphlet, to sum it all up, as I see it, pictures in concise. form the results which may be achieved through the expenditure of the one and a half million dollar fund raised by the National Association of Manufacturers.

Mr. Girdler, I should like to have you look at exhibit 4606. This is a table of payments by the National Steel Corporation, the Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co., the Inland Steel Co., Republic Steel Corporation, the American Rolling Mill Co., and the Bethlehem Steel Co., to the firm of Hill & Knowlton.

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes, sir.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. For special services.

The exhibit shows that Republic contributed a total of $14,332 from August 1937, through July 1938, and total contributions from the six companies mentioned, amounted to $86,759.

Do you recall who first approached you with reference to this special service from Hill & Knowlton?

Mr. GIRDLER. I would like to read this, because I prepared this, and it will sound better than if I try to talk.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What are you reading from?

Mr. GIRDLER. From a memorandum. I will be very glad to hand you this whole thing when it is over, if you want it. It is an indexed memorandum of various things.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. May I see it, please? [Mr. Girdler hands document to Senator La Follette.]

Mr. GIRDLER. That is prepared so I would have the dates right.
Senator LA FOLLETTE. How was that prepared?

Mr. GIRDLER. That was prepared by me with the assistance of Mr. Hill.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. When?

Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, within the last few days; I don't know exactly when.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. In preparation for your appearance before this committee?

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes, sir; of course.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Are the facts set forth there the facts which you recalled or which Mr. Hill recalled?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, anything I say in here I either dug out of my memory or dug out of other information that we had. The facts are

correct.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you have any records to dig anything out of?

Mr. GIRDLER. In this particular statement here that you are talking about now, I don't think there were any records except I refreshed my memory by talking to Mr. Hill and he refreshed his by talking to me. I didn't talk to anyone else on the subject.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Can you recall, prior to the time you read that, who first spoke to you about it?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, I don't know whether I first spoke to Mr. Hill or he spoke to me. I assume I spoke to him. It came up in a conversation between us. Mr. Hill and I have had a great many conversations over the years.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Had you discussed the matter with anyone else before you discussed it with Mr. Hill?

Mr. GIRDLER. No.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. My recollection of Mr. Hill's testimony was that he discussed it first with Mr. Grace. Had you discussed it with Mr. Grace?

Mr. GIRDLER. Before I discussed it with Mr. Hill?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes.

Mr. GIRDLER. NO.

In the summer of 1937 I arranged with the firm of Hill & Knowlton to undertake some special research work in connection with the problem of industrial relations. I knew that other companies were interested in the same project. Mr. Hill talked to me individually at various times and the final arrangement was made at a meeting in New York which was attended by the heads of other steel companies who had not signed C. I. O. contracts.

To the best of my recollection that meeting was held in my office in the Chrysler Building in New York. At this meeting Mr. Hill outlined the nature of the proposed work which was to be largely research. The reason for it was that the C. I. O. and its advocates were laying down a veritable barrage of misrepresentation and falsehood directed at the steel companies who had refused to sign C. I. O. contracts. In my opinion the best defense against untruth is the truth. Therefore our first job was to make a complete and thorough survey of all the basic facts relating to the complex problem of labor relations.

That is what the arrangement with Hill & Knowlton involved. It was most important that we be fortified with comprehensive facts about the history of the labor movement in America, the methods and purpose of the C. I. O., the extent of the communist influence in the C. I. O., the operation of the Wagner Act, and the administration by the Labor Board, and other similar matters. wanted a complete and thorough job and there was no deadline on its completion.

I

We have had no final report, but I have been advised of the progress of the work at all times, and I am satisfied that it will prove of real value. The job was left entirely up to Mr. Hill's direction, I know nothing of the details about what the individuals on Hill & Knowlton's staff did or what work was assigned to them. I am interested only in the final conclusions which Mr. Hill will present to us in due course. I expect these conclusions to help us in apprising our own policy and position.