It is quite likely that many of the supporting facts will be made available to anyone who may be interested.

With reference to the cost of the studies I believe that no expense is too great for any activity which in any way could contribute to the better understanding of the problem of industrial relations in this country and to the solution of that problem.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. In your conference with Mr. Hill in which, if I recall your answer previously given, you said you couldn't remember whether you suggested the idea or he; did you discuss in a general way what work was to be done by Hill & Knowlton? Mr. GIRDLER. Yes; I stated it here.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you discuss it with him in this first conference?

Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, undoubtedly. I don't remember all the details of that conference.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Was there any discussion of what the general character of the work would be and what would be done? Mr. GIRDLER. Undoubtedly.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. At the first conference?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, the first conference-it is pretty hard to put your finger on the first conference. This particular subject of trying to do things to offset this barrage of misrepresentation that I speak of here, was talked about between Mr. Hill and myself many times. Mr. Hill's firm, the firm of Hill & Knowlton, are the publicity agents for the Republic Steel Corporation.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes; that is in the record.

After you discussed the matter with Mr. Hill, did you discuss the program or special services with anyone else?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know. I think that probably I suggested to Mr. Hill that he discuss this idea with other steel executives. I am not sure about that, but whatever was the approach to that, it came to a head in a meeting in my office in New York.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Prior to this meeting in New York had you personally discussed the matter with any of the others, any other persons connected with the other companies that finally came in on the program?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know whether I had or not, I really don't know. If I did not, I probably discussed it with Mr. Hill, discussed conversations that he might have had with some of these gentlemen. I am not trying to say at all that I didn't, because I may have talked to Mr. Weir or Mr. Grace or Mr. Purnell, or others, I am not sure. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Can you fix the approximate time, I mean by that the month, when you had this conference in New York at which other persons connected with other companies were present? Mr. GIRDLER. No, I can't tell you when it was.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Well

Mr. GIRDLER (interposing). I would say it was after our strike was over. That is about as close as I could come to it.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Some time in the summer or fall of 1937? Mr. GIRDLER. Maybe July, I don't know, it might have been July or August.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember who was present at the New York meeting in your office?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, I don't know as I could remember accurately. I would say that probably Mr. Grace: Mr. Weir; Mr. Hook; either Mr. Purnell or Mr. Dalton: and either Mr. Block or Mr. Ryerson

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Was any effort made, to your knowledge, Mr. Girdler, to get other companies interested?

Mr. GIRDLER. None whatever.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Why did you stop with these six companies? Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, I don't know, I don't know as there is any specific reason for that. The heads of these companies displayed an interest in this fact-finding undertaking.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. When you discussed the matter, prior to the time these men gathered in New York with Mr. Hill, did you or did you not suggest to him the names of men or companies which you thought might be interested?

Mr. GIRDLER. I may have, I am not sure about that. I may have. It would be a rather natural thing for me to do.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you have any reason to believe that these particular men or companies would be interested?

Mr. GIRDLER. No specific reason; no. I found, dealing with this same group of men and other men in the steel industry, that I have ideas about lots of things that I am quite sure they will be interested in and in many cases they are not-especially when they cost money.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I will ask you to look at exhibit 4607, which is a table of disbursements made by Hill & Knowlton regarding this special service. The table shows that $5,000 odd was spent for a special consultant. Did you receive any services from any special consultant that you know of?

Mr. GIRDLER. No; I don't know who he was.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Hill, who was the special consultant? Mr. HILL. That referred to Mr. Sokolsky.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever receive any special services from Mr. Sokolsky?

Mr. GIRDLER. Did I; no, sir.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did the company to your knowledge?
Mr. GIRDLER. Not to my knowledge, no.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. The table also shows, on the face, the payment of $7,000-odd to Mr. Sokolsky.

Mr. GIRDLER. I knew that Mr. Sokolsky did some lecturing and some writing, but for the life of me I couldn't tell you which of his lectures or which of his writings or what not had anything to do with this. I suppose Mr. Hill could tell you in detail.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you know that you were paying $14,000 for his services?

Mr. GIRDLER. No; as a matter of fact I paid very little attention to this except that I was interested in trying to get the facts together and trying to do something to stop this misrepresentation and falsehood, and so forth.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. If I understand your testimony, all that vas to be done by Hill & Knowlton, and all that you know that vas done by Hill & Knowlton, pursuant to this special service, was his research work you have mentioned?

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes; research work and publicity.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What publicity did they do?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, if Mr. Sokolsky made a speech, that is pubLicity.

Mr. HILL. Oh, no.

Mr. GIRDLER. Mr. Hill and I don't seem to agree on that.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I hand you a copy of a letter from Mr. Clinton S. Golden, regional director, northeastern region, of the S. W. O. C., addressed to the Republic Steel Corporation and dated March 30, 1937. The letter has previously been introduced into the record as exhibit 4635.

Was this letter ever brought to your attention?

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. When and by whom, if you remember?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, I think, I am not accurate about this, but I think my secretary handed it to me and I handed it either to Mr. Wysor or Mr. White. If Mr. Wysor was there I undoubtedly handed it to him; if he wasn't, I undoubtedly handed it to Mr. White.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you thereafter have any conferences or discussion on the subject matter of the proposed negotiations?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, we had conversations on the subject, undoubtedly.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. To your knowledge was the subject matter of this letter and the issue which it raised, brought to the atten1tion of the board of directors?

Mr. GIRDLER. I couldn't answer that, I think you could look through the minutes and you could probably tell me, Senator; I can't tell you.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I am just asking you whether you recall?
Mr. GIRDLER. I can't remember.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you or did you not, Mr. Girdler, in the broad sense of the word, participate in the decision as to what reply or response or what action, if any, should be taken in respect to this letter?

Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, I participated in a lot of conversations on the subject, at the time.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. You know what I mean. Did you participate in the decision or did you just have conversations with people about it?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, we had conversations, but I think we all thought exactly alike all the time about it; I don't think there was very much argument.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Voss, in his testimony, page 17149, mentioned that there was a meeting where you, Mr. Wysor, Mr. Voss, Mr. White, and Mr. Veach were together. Do you remember whether you were present or not?

Mr. GIRDLER. I probably was, I don't remember accurately; I probably was.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember any of these discussions which you had with other executives and officials of the company, whether there was any discussion of the terms of the contract which Mr. Golden enclosed with his letter?

Mr. GIRDLER. The term of the contract?
Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes, the terms.

Mr. GIRDLER. I think that Carnegie-Illinois contract was a contract with a term of a year.

Mr. PATTON. The terms.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I mean whether you participated in any meetings or discussions where the content of the contract was discussed.

Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, I don't think I spent much time on any details of the contract. I am not sure that I ever read that contract. I think I probably did, but I am not sure about that.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember whether there were any provisions of the contract which were not acceptable to you?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, as I remember it, the contract was a definite contract for a year, and the principal thing they wanted was to have a signed contract. We objected to that.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Then if I understand your reply, it is that one of the objections which you had to the contract was the fact that it was to have a definite period of being in effect?

Mr. GIRDLER. That is one of the objections.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What others did you have?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, I think there were quite a few details on that contract that were probably not acceptable, small things. I don't remember very much about them. The main thing was that we weren't going to sign a contract.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Then was that what you discussed mostly with the men in the company?

Mr. GIRDLER. I beg your pardon?

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. GIRDLER. Mostly discussed the question of signing a contract with the C. I. O.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you discuss the subject of a signed contract with the S. W. O. C., as requested in this letter, with officials of any other steel companies?

Mr. GIRDLER. I think I probably told informally some officials of other companies that we had received this letter. I probably asked them if they had received letters of that kind. I don't know the details of any of those. I didn't ask any of them if they thought we ought to sign a contract of this kind because I didn't need to ask. I knew what we were going to do.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Girdler, do you remember being present at a meeting of the Iron and Steel Institute in New York after this Jetter had been received?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't remember any specific meeting.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember any meeting at which, when the formal meeting of the Iron and Steel Institute ended, some of the persons from the different steel companies sat down and discussed this question of signing a contract or gave forth information as to what the attitude of the various companies would be on the issue? Mr. GIRDLER. A good many times I sat around in groups of steel executives. Perhaps after Iron and Steel Institute meetings, and perhaps on other occasions, and I heard a good many expressions from steel executives as to what they thought and what they were going to do and what not.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember any discussions where representatives of other steel companies were present, where you discussed the question of signing or not signing?

Mr. GIRDLER. Where we discussed the question of signing or not? Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes.

Mr. GIRDLER. Only in that executives of other steel companies in those groups expressed their ideas and made statements as to what they expected to do.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Girdler, I should like to call your attention to exhibit 4637, which is a copy of a telegram addressed to you by Mr. Golden, dated May 3, 1937. Was that brought to your attention?

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes, that was brought to my attention, I think over the telephone. I am not sure, but I think in New York; I was in New York, and they called me on the telephone and read me this.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Were you consulted about the reply to it? Mr. GIRDLER. No, I would not say I was consulted about the reply to it. I think I had a conversation with Mr. Wysor about this telegram, and Mr. Wysor told me something about the discussion that he had had with Mr. White and Mr. Voss. That is as I remember it. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Was the proposed reply submitted to you over the telephone or otherwise for your approval or disapproval?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know whether it was in detail. As I remember it, Mr. Wysor told me that Mr. Voss had sent a telegram to Mr. Golden or called him up or something, telling him that he would be glad to see him in his office on such and such a date.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Prior to the time that the telegram was sent, Mr. Girdler, do you recall whether or not you participated in any discussions or indicated that the content of the reply should contain a statement that the company would not sign any contract? Mr. GIRDLER. You mean discussion with my own staff? Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes.

Mr. GIRDLER. Oh, I think they indicated in a general way about it, but I don't know that they read me the exact text of the telegram they were going to send.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you or did you not, Mr. Girdler, participate in any way in the decision which was outlined-affirming the decision in Mr. Voss' telegram to Mr. Golden setting forth the position of the company that it would not sign a contract?