Mr. GIRDLER. Well, whether I participated in any discussion with anyone except Mr. Wysor, or just how that was brought about, I don't know, but I will say this, that Mr. Wysor and I were of one mind about the situation. There was not any question about that when that telegram was sent, there is not any question that Mr. Wysor knew that that telegram would be acceptable to me or he would not have sent Do you have the telegram that was sent by Mr. Voss? Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes. I thought you had seen it.

Mr. GIRDLER (reading):

Your request for a meeting to discuss signed contract has been referred to me for reply in view of Wagner Act see no necessity for signed contract. The policy of this company has been and is now that it is willing to meet with anyone to bargain with him for whomsoever he represents in conformity with this general policy. The proper representatives of this company will meet you at any time mutually convenient for collective bargaining purposes. Advise if Tuesday May Eleventh my office Cleveland satisfactory for meeting. J. A. Voss.

Director of Industrial Relations, Republic Steel Corporation. You will notice Mr. Voss said that he could see no necessity for a signed contract.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes, and my questions were directed to the point as to whether or not you participated in the decision of the company's position that it would not sign a contract which was outlined in that telegram which Mr. Voss sent.

Mr. GIRDLER. The telegram did not say that we would not sign a contract.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you at the time that telegram was sent have any idea that you might sign a contract?

Mr. GIRDLER. Did I? No; I never had any idea.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did anyone else in the company?

Mr. GIRDLER. I would not know about that, whether somebody in the company had in mind.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did any of these officials you talked with? Mr. GIRDLER. What officials?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. The officials you said you conferred with or had conversations with.

Mr. GIRDLER. Of all the steel companies?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. No, sir; in your own?

Mr. GIRDLER. I say. I think our minds were all working along the same lines; the ones that I talked to. I don't think that any of them had any idea of signing a contract, or that it was a good thing to sign a contract, or that there was any necessity for signing a contract, or that the law required you to sign a contract, especially with an irresponsible outfit."

Senator LA FOLLETTE. All that I desire to learn, Mr. Girdler, is whether or not at the time this telegram was sent, you had participated in any decisions, or had the company come to any decision, that it would not sign a contract?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't think the company ever-the officials of the company-a group of officials of the company-ever got to a point

where they tried to cross the last end of the bridge before they got there. We always hoped that we would not have a strike, we did not see any necessity why there should be a strike just because we would not sign a contract similar to the Carnegie-Illinois contract or any other.

In addition to that, Senator, we had a great deal of pressure brought on us by our men after the Carnegie-Illinois signed a contract, pressure on us not to sign a contract at any time or to make any arrangement with any outside labor organization.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes. Mr. White and others have pointed that out. Perhaps I can put the question in a different way. When these men finally went to this conference which they had with Mr. Golden and other representatives of the S. W. O. C., were they under any instructions which would have permitted them to have signed a contract or which would have prohibited them from signing a contract?

Mr. GIRDLER. There was not any necessity for any instructions, because in a matter of that kind, they did not go to a conference, as I understand it. The S. W. O. C. people, as I understand it, came to Mr. Voss' office, and I do not know who was present in Mr. Voss' office. I don't remember. I was not there, and I am quite sure Mr. Wysor was not there.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. As far as I can see, it is immaterial where they met. But at this meeting which finally took place, were the men there on behalf of the Republic Steel Corporation in a position where they could have signed a contract or not?

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't think for a minute that Mr. Voss felt that he was in a position where he could sign a contract with the S. W. O. C. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Then am I correct, and if I am not correct I wish you would so indicate, in deducing from your responses to these questions that the company had formulated a decision that it would not sign a contract prior to the time this meeting was held.

Mr. GIRDLER. I don't know whether the company had formulated a decision. Golden was to see Voss in his office, and Voss was to listen to what Golden had to say and come back and report on it. That is what happened.

Mr. WHITE. I don't think any of our men, Senator-to straighten this out-in negotiating any large deal, would ever go in and finally decide to sign a contract to buy another steel company or to make a big ore purchase, or something of that sort without negotiating and coming back for a final check up and final approval all the way through.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. White, we went into a long series of testimony from a great many witnesses as to what went on at this conference. I am asking what seems to me to be a simple question. Perhaps I do not phrase it right, but, Mr. Girdler, when these men went to this conference, had any general understanding been reached? Mr. GIRDLER. No; there had not been any general understanding reached. Let me put it, if I understand your question, this way. Mr. Voss knew perfectly well, although I do not think he was ever

definitely told, that he was not going to arrive at any definite understanding about a signed contract with Golden at that meeting in his office on May 11.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I hand you a copy of a telegram addressed · by J. A. Voss to Clinton S. Golden, dated May 6, 1937, previously : introduced in the record as exhibit 4639. Was this telegram brought to your attention, Mr. Girdler?

Mr. GIRDLER. I think it was, but I am not sure. that I ever read it. I think I was talked to about it.

I don't know

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember who talked to you about it?

Mr. GIRDLER. Probably Mr. Wysor.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What instructions, if any, were given to Mr. Voss and Mr. Veach as to their conduct in this meeting?

Mr. GIRDLER. You mean given by me? I did not give them any. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you know whether they were given any! Mr. GIRDLER. No: I do not.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did they report the outcome of the conference to you?

Mr. GIRDLER. Somebody did. I don't know who it was.

Mr. WHITE. I had the last talk with Mr. Voss and Mr. Veach, Senator, before they went into that conference, to which I have testified.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I have been all over it with you, and I hope I do not have to go over it with you again.

Mr. WHITE. I am only trying to clear the thing up.

Mr. GIRDLER. I gave them no instructions as to what they were to do and what they were not to do, and I don't know that they ever reported to me. I suppose I was told what happened in this meeting by Mr. Wysor, or if he was not there, I was probably told by Mr. White, or it is quite probably that Mr. White and Wysor came to my office together and told me, and I am not even sure that I was in town.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Girdler, who formulates decisions on matters of this kind for Republic Steel Corporation?

Mr. GIRDLER. On the matter of labor relations?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes.

Mr. GIRDLER. I would say Mr. Voss formulates the procedure, the general idea of all of these things, and talks it over with Mr. White. If it is of considerable importance, probably Mr. White or Mr. White and Mr. Voss talk it over with Mr. Wysor, and if it is still something that they are not quite sure as to what is the best thing to do or what ought to be done, Mr. Wysor or Mr. Wysor and Mr. Voss talk it over with me.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What persons would decide whether Republic Steel would sign a contract with a labor organization? Mr. GIRDLER. You mean the court of last resort?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I am trying to find out who would decide an issue of that character?

17

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, Mr. Voss might decide that, if it were left to him, or he would not, and then he might talk to Mr. White, and Mr. White might say "I agree with you," and Mr. White might talk to Mr. Wysor and myself and agree with them also, and if it was of that particular subject, I know I would agree with them.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. You realized, did you not, that a strike might result in view of this correspondence that had been brought to your attention?

Mr. GIRDLER. Yes, indeed.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you not think that a matter of sufficient importance should come to the court of last resort?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, on that sort of a policy in our company, it would not require the action of the board of directors, so I would be the court of last resort on a thing like that.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. That is the one that I was referring to.

Mr. GIRDLER. But we do not do business quite that way in our company, so that thing all during that time was talked over with members of the board of directors, and was talked over a certain amount in directors meetings informally.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did you ever disapprove of any action or position taken by Mr. Voss, Mr. Veach, Mr. Wysor, or Mr. White? Mr. GIRDLER. I have disagreed with them about lots of things. Senator LA FOLLETTE. In connection with this matter?

Mr. GIRDLER. In connection with this matter, no; I don't think I disapproved of anything. You asked a minute ago if I realized that we might have a strike. I certainly realized we might have a strike, and I was quite sure that if we signed a C. I. O. contract that we would have a strike.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. That does not affect the question which I asked you, which was whether or not in view of the fact that you thought you might have a strike, was that not a matter of sufficient importance to come to your attention or the attention of the court of last resort, by which I meant you.

Mr. GIRDLER. I did not say it was not a matter of great importance. You must have misunderstood me.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Were you or were you not requested by Governor Davey to confer personally with representatives of the S. W. O. C.?

Mr. GIRDLER. Well, I was first asked by Governor Davey to come down and see him, and I chartered a little plane that did not look any too safe to me, and took Mr. Voss with me and we went down and saw Governor Davey. Then Governor Davey called me. I don't know whether at that meeting he asked me to confer with the S. W. O. C. or not; I don't think so; but later on he called me on the telephone and asked me to come down and sit in a meeting with some of the S. W. O. C. people and I told him Mr. Voss would come down. Senator LA FOLLETTE. I offer for the record a copy of a telegram addressed to Mr. Girdler by Governor Davey, dated June 8, 1937. It may be given an exhibit number and printed in the record.'

definitely told, that he was not going to arrive at any definite understanding about a signed contract with Golden at that meeting in his office on May 11.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I hand you a copy of a telegram addressed by J. A. Voss to Clinton S. Golden, dated May 6, 1937, previously introduced in the record as exhibit 4639. Was this telegram brought to your attention, Mr. Girdler?

Mr. GIRDLER. I think it was, but I am not sure. that I ever read it. I think I was talked to about it.

it?

I don't know

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you remember who talked to you about

Mr. GIRDLER. Probably Mr. Wysor.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What instructions, if any, were given to Mr. Voss and Mr. Veach as to their conduct in this meeting?

Mr. GIRDLER. You mean given by me? I did not give them any. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Do you know whether they were given any? Mr. GIRDLER. No; I do not.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Did they report the outcome of the conference to you?

Mr. GIRDLER. Somebody did. I don't know who it was.

Mr. WHITE. I had the last talk with Mr. Voss and Mr. Veach, Senator, before they went into that conference, to which I have testified.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I have been all over it with you, and I hope I do not have to go over it with you again.

Mr. WHITE. I am only trying to clear the thing up.

Mr. GIRDLER. I gave them no instructions as to what they were to do and what they were not to do, and I don't know that they ever reported to me. I suppose I was told what happened in this meeting by Mr. Wysor, or if he was not there, I was probably told by Mr. White, or it is quite probably that Mr. White and Wysor came to my office together and told me, and I am not even sure that I was in

town.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Mr. Girdler, who formulates decisions on matters of this kind for Republic Steel Corporation?

Mr. GIRDLER. On the matter of labor relations?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Yes.

Mr. GIRDLER. I would say Mr. Voss formulates the procedure, the general idea of all of these things, and talks it over with Mr. White. If it is of considerable importance, probably Mr. White or Mr. White and Mr. Voss talk it over with Mr. Wysor, and if it is still something that they are not quite sure as to what is the best thing to do or what ought to be done, Mr. Wysor or Mr. Wysor and Mr. Voss talk it over with me.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What persons would decide whether Republic Steel would sign a contract with a labor organization? Mr. GIRDLER. You mean the court of last resort?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I am trying to find out whe

an issue of that character? than