we were anxious to establish a system | treasury. Moreover, the taxpayer was of classification, but no one could doubt in all cases obliged to pay the bounty, that in reality that system broke down, and an additional tax was placed on the for unless carried out with great fidelity, article subject to that bounty. The reit opened the door to a large amount of sult was that the consumption of sugar fraud. In 1871, when France said she in France, owing to the heavy duties, would establish a system satisfactory to was far less than in England, being only us, it was found impossible to proceed 17 lbs per head as against 57 lbs per with our classification system. Up to head here. The French people, he bethe present time France had not kept lieved, would soon find out that the systhe engagements which we had a right tem they were now pursuing was ruinous, to expect she would keep. Owing pro- and they would then urge upon their bably to circumstances over which she Government the necessity of putting an had no control, she said recently that end to it. If the bounty system were she wished the time for establishing re- extended in the way its advocates defining in bond to be extended, and now sired, the burden on the Exchequer this time was fixed for March 1, 1876. would increase so largely that it would Although we might feel much disap- be impossible for any country to bear it. pointment with the course taken by Before long, in all probability, France, France, she had given strong pledges Holland, Belgium, and other countries that she would introduce the system of which had adopted this vicious system refining in bond at the time fixed. Ne- would find that our example was the true gotiations were also going on with Hol- one to follow. The Conventions expired land on the same subject, but until the this very day, and France might turn proposal which would be made by Hol- round upon us and say-" We are bound land actually reached Her Majesty's to you no longer." All we could thereGovernment it would be imprudent to fore do was to establish the system which refer to it. He might say, however, that we were bound to establish, and which Her Majesty's Government would be we thought was the best for our councautious how they entered into any other try; and he believed that if we could Convention on the subject. When the show to France that that was the best House saw the correspondence, he thought system we should produce a greater they would come to the conclusion that effect than could be produced in any the Government had taken the only other way. course open to them in withholding COLONEL EGERTON LEIGH said, their consent from the proposal made he was sorry to find that, although it to us quite lately by the four Powers. was admitted a wrong had been done to A countervailing duty upon refined sugar the English refiners, there seemed to be had been suggested, but Her Majesty's no idea of providing a remedy for it. Government would not think it right to While our sugar refiners were being adopt this course, nor would it be sanc- ruined, the only suggestion of the Gotioned by public opinion. It also ap-vernment was that they should be kept peared to the Government that such a step would be one of doubtful policy, when in nine months they hoped to see an end to the evil now complained of. The system of bounties was a very vicious one. The only persons who could benefit by it in France were, not the beet-growers, but the refiners. It was absolutely ruinous to attempt to prop up an industry of this kind by artificial means, for when deprived of the stimulus the industry would be more depressed than ever. The system of bounties was the worst system of the most aggravated kind of protection, for whereas a system of protection in some countries and some cases might fill the treasury, a system of bounties must in all cases empty the waiting still longer, until the trade was ruined entirely. He should have liked to hear something more satisfactory than the declaration that bounties were bad things in general, and that Her Majesty's Government intended to adopt some course which would have compelled France to do the right thing by us. He did not wish to see a commercial enterprize of that sort destroyed in England, and he hoped our Government would be wise in time. Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. SUPPLY-ARMY PURCHASE COM MISSION. SUPPLY considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) (1.) £486,560, to complete the sum for the Army Purchase Commission. MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in proposing the Vote, said, that when he came into office a Commission appointed under the auspices of his predecessor, almost judicial in its character, was inquiring into certain grievances on which the officers had memorialized the Government. Her Majesty's Government had desired to carry out the provisions of the Army Regulation Act, not in letter only, but in spirit, and he had adopted as far as he possibly could the recommendations of that Commission, but the questions raised by them as to the desirability of keeping up the system of promotion as it existed during the existence of Purchase was now being investigated by another Commission. The Committee would find under the sub-heads of this Vote that there were three new Votes to be taken. One was for what was called bonus, which was a sum which was paid to officers who retired. As had been said by the Royal Commission, there was no sound distinction between an exceptional overregulation price and an exceptional bonus. Practically, it was an over-regulation price which was not permitted under the Army Regulation Act, but which the Royal Commission unanimously recommended should be paid. The second Vote was for over-regulation prices granted to officers who were on full-pay at the time of the passing of the Act. The third Vote was one which he was sure the Committee would readily accept, which was recommended by the Royal Commission-namely, that those officers who had been put compulsorily on half-pay, many of whom had performed distinguished services, particularly those who had served in India, should, on being brought on full-pay, receive over-regulation prices. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR said, he was glad the right hon. Gentleman proposed to carry out the arrangements of Lord Cardwell. He thought a list should be furnished of the names of the officers who had received money under this Commission in order that the SIR HENRY HAVELOCK urged the claims of those officers who had been compelled by the passing of the Act to retire on half-pay, although they had been previously selected for Staff appointments and the rank of major. MR. STANLEY pointed out that the case of the officers referred to had been fully investigated by the Royal Commissioners, who reported that the claim they put forward was of too vague a character to be entertained. His right hon. Friend was, on the one hand, anxious to give the fullest consideration to claims which were favourably reported on, and, on the other, to guard the House from a too wide and over liberal extension of the terms on which the original procedure in this matter was taken. SIR HENRY HAVELOCK expressed his regret that the case of officers who had, in his opinion, a just claim for compensation had not been favourably considered. Vote agreed to. SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. CLASS III.-LAW AND JUSTICE. (2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £745,037, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum in course of payment during the year ending on necessary to defray the Charge which will come the 31st day of March 1876, for the Constabulary Force in Ireland." MR. ERRINGTON hoped the Chief Secretary for Ireland would take into consideration the claims of those members of the Constabulary Force in Ireland who retired compulsorily or voluntarily between 1873 and the end of 1874, in the interval between the passing of two Acts for granting increased pensions to those who retired, and who were thus deprived of the extra benefits secured by the latter Act. MR. WHALLEY demanded to know why, in the name of common sense, they paid £1,000,000 a-year for police in Ire land, and yet trifled with the earnest | the Irish Constabulary, the present state warning of the German Ambassador. of Ireland bore no slight testimony to [Cries of "Oh!"] Further, the Prime their efficiency as a police force. As to Minister had ignored altogether the statement of the Lord Chief Justice, who stated that the Queen did not reign in Ireland; it was the Pope. ["Oh, oh!"] He called upon the Chief Secretary for Ireland to explain what the Vote was for, if it were not to counteract the foreign power of the Pope in Ireland. Cries of Agreed!"] In consequence of the determined interruption he would not pursue the subject further; he had liberated his conscience. 66 MR. MELLOR objected to the large sum paid away in pensions, and asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland to explain the principle on which superannuations were granted. MR. MELDON called attention to what he regarded as an injustice in the giving of pensions. The pensions for the Irish Constabulary were calculated on the rate of pay when they entered the service, while the pensions of the metropolitan police were calculated on the rate of pay they received at the time they retired. The pensions in the latter case would be much higher. Both bodies were appointed under the same Act; then why should this difference exist as to the mode of calculating their pensions? MR. MITCHELL HENRY reminded the Committee that the constables for whom this money was voted would be more properly denominated a military force. He should always consider it a standing disgrace to this country that it was necessary that this enormous sum should be voted for the purpose of keeping up such a force for Ireland; and he believed that it would be entirely unnecessary if they would concede to the Irish people their just rights. MR. WHITWELL wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been directed to the high rents of police barracks? SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH said, his attention had been called to the cost of barracks for the Constabulary, but the matter was more difficult than it seemed to be at first sight. It was desirable when the circumstances were favourable that the barracks should be public property. As to the remark of the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) he believed that whatever might be the armament or drill of the pension list, if they found, on the one hand, that it was objected to as too large, and on the other as too small, they might fairly conclude that it was about what it ought be. All the pensions were computed upon Acts of Parliament open to the inspection of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Mellor.) It should be remembered that the constables in this force were picked men, and that Ireland having a healthy climate, pensioners possibly lived there longer than they did in other countries. In reply to the hon. Members for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) and Longford (Mr. Errington), he wished to say that although he felt unable to comply with the desires expressed in the memorials hitherto sent in, he was ready to take any fresh point into consideration, and to make the proper recommendations with regard to it. MR. RONAYNE contended that the police of Ireland were a well-organized military force, and were not good as detective or as ordinary police constables. Its members were to be found even at flower shows with rifles on their shoulders and swords by their sides. Their conduct, however, he must admit, was unimpeachable, and they acted with great consideration towards the people, considering the large powers which they possessed under certain Acts of Parliament. MR. CHARLES LEWIS moved that Progress should be reported. Hon. Members had been 10 hours in that House, and three distinguished Members-those for Taunton, Rochester, and Carlisle-were already fast asleep. The House had been sitting for 10 hours, and it was desirable that they should know to what extent the endurance of private Members was to be called upon at that period of the Session. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."(Mr. Charles Lewis.) MR. BERESFORD HOPE believed that if the hon. Member for Londonderry wished to go home to bed, they would all wish him a very good night. MR. R. POWER said, there were more than 90 Members in the House, and as only three were asleep, there could be no objection to their going on. On the Treasury Bench they were particularly wide awake. MR. GATHORNE HARDY hoped that the Motion for reporting Progress would not be pressed at that early hour. The three hon. Members who had been referred to as being asleep were always found very particularly wide awake when any subject they were interested in was being discussed, and it was a privilege of that House, which he hoped would always continue, that hon. Members might go to sleep when they did not wish to listen to what was being said. MR. M'CARTHY DOWNING bore testimony to the excellence and efficiency of the police force in Ireland. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to. (3.) £52,366, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Legal Charges, Ireland. CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item of £10,000, for the Meteorological Committee of the Royal Society, be reduced by £1,000."-(Mr. M'Lagan.) MR. LYON PLAYFAIR said, a previous Treasury had expressed its opinion that the Meteorological Society of Scotland ought to have a portion of the grant, because of the good work it was doing. MR. M'LAREN said, the people of Scotland did not ask for any largesse from the people of England or Ireland, because if the £1,000 was given to Scotland, she would only be getting her share of the taxes to which she contributed one tenth part. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR supported the Amendment, on the important condition that the observations by the Meteorological Society of Scotland were more varied than those of the office in London, and were practically of a character very different from that of the Society in London; being also applied to develop an industry of great value to Scotland-that of ascertaining the influence of the weather and the temperature of the sea on the herring fishery. There were other important rected their inquiries, and it would be objects to which the Scotch Society diof the London and Edinburgh Societies easy to arrange that the investigations should co-operate for the general good, and thus prevent conflicts or rivalries. The acquisition of the knowledge which (5.) £1,506, to complete the sum for might guide the fishermen in following the National Portrait Gallery. up the shoals of herrings might prove pro-nation; moreover, the collections which the means of yielding large profits to the (6.) Motion made, and Question posed, "That a were at present made by the fee for the sum, not exceeding £9,550, be brand affixed to the herring barrels yielded granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come nearly £9,000, and this money should, as in course of payment during the year ending on a matter of course, be employed for the bethe 31st day of March 1876, for Grants in nefit of the trade, instead of being used to aid of the Expenditure of certain Learned So- swell the Miscellaneous Revenue receipts. cieties in Great Britain and Ireland." MR. M'LAGAN (for Mr. MALCOLM) moved the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £1,000. He did not consider that the money spent by the Meteorological Committee of the Royal Society was as profitably administered as it might be, and he contended that the Meteorological Society of Scotland ought to have a share of this grant. The Society of London had acknowledged the value of the work being done by the Society of Scotland, which had applied itself to agricultural and other pursuits. Mr. R. Power MR. W. H. SMITH said, the money was not given to the Meteorological Society of England, but to a Committee of the Royal Society. The Treasury were well aware of the value of the services of the Meteorological Society of Scotland, and during the autumn they would inquire into the circumstances of the grant, and see whether it was fitting and proper that a portion of the money should go to Scotland. MR. RAMSAY said, it was quite evident that the money was not being administered as well as it might be, CAPTAIN MILNE-HOME said, that at so advanced an hour he had no wish to detain the Committee more than a very few moments, especially after the clear and detailed statement made by hon. Members opposite. He would merely draw attention to the wording of the Vote before the Committee, which was for"The Meteorological Committee, appointed by the Royal Society, at the request of the Government, who conduct Meteorological Observations and Experiments on behalf of the Govern ment." FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. CONSIDERATION OF LORDS AMENDMENTS. Lords Amendments considered. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE QUER, in moving to disagree with the Lords Amendment reducing the amount for which the lives of children under five years of age might be insured for from £6 to £3, said, the Bill provided securities to keep in check any tendency towards culpable neglect of young chilHe reminded the Committee that the dren, and the Government had evidence Meteorological Society of Scotland had before them that the £3 would not in all been instituted in 1854, it might be cases cover bona fide medical and funeral said at the instigation of the Go- expenses. The opinion of a large mavernment of the day, in order to fur-jority of hon. Members of this House on nish weather Returns to the Scotch Registrar General. These Returns had been regularly supplied for the last 20 years, at an estimated annual cost of £250, which had to come out from an income of under £400, subscribed entirely from private sources. He therefore thought it was high time, on this ground alone, that Parliament should supplement the funds of the Society. He would not occupy the time of the Committee any longer, except to add, that though sitting on that side of the House, he fully endorsed the views which had been so well expressed by Scotch Members opposite. Qustion put. this point had been overruled by a very small majority of the House of Lords, and, under those circumstances, he would move that the Lords Amendment should be disagreed with. MR. A. H. BROWN hoped the House would agree with the Lords Amendment. Motion agreed to. Several Amendments agreed to; several amended, and agreed to; several disagreed to; and consequential Amendments made to the Bill. Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to be assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to the Amendments to which this House hath disagreed: "Mr. CHANCELLOR of the ExCHE The Committee divided:-Ayes 43; QUER, Mr. Secretary CROSS, Mr. Secretary Noes 56 Majority 13. Original Question put, and agreed to. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.". (Mr. Monk.) The Committee divided:-Ayes 21; Noes 79: Majority 58. (7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £7,668, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Salaries and Expenses of the University of London." Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. Meldon.) Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; HARDY, Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON, Lord LOCK, Viscount BARRINGTON, Mr. DYKE, Mr. To withdraw immediately; Three to be the ROWLAND WINN, and Mr. ALEXANDER BROWN: quorum. House adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Saturday, 31st July, 1875. MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee -CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. PUBLIC BILLS- Ordered- First Reading-Na- Second Reading-Ecclesiastical Fees Redistribu- Committee Report-Ecclesiastical Commission L |