The House met at Twelve of the ment had grossly misinformed him. He clock.

inaccurate statement to the House as to nor in reality any discourtesy at all. the grounds upon which Smallbones had With regard to the more important been released from prison; as soon as principle of the question raised by the he discovered the mistake into which he hon. Member for Londonderry, he had been led, he stated the fact to the thought the House ought to bear House, and made what he had intended in mind that it was a somewhat delito be a full and complete apology for his cate matter for one House of Parliamis-statement. He had since endea- ment to interfere in a question relating voured to discover how he had been to the administration of justice. And misled. He only got notice of the although he could not say that there fact on Tuesday, and hon. Members, there might be cases in which it would who were aware how greatly he had be quite right for the House of Commons been occupied since, would know how to pass a Resolution reflecting on the very little time had been left him for conduct of the Judges, it was a matter making an investigation into such a mat-in which the House ought to proceed ter. The County Court Judges were not responsible to him, and, as he had stated the day before, however anxious he might be to procure information, he could not do it himself, but only through the aid of others. With regard to the Motion itself, every hon. Member of the House must regret that a man should have been illegally imprisoned for eight months; but the House would hardly pass a Resolution affirming so obvious a fact. As regarded the second part of the Motion, its first paragraph appeared to answer the second, for when the House was called upon to affirm that what the County Court Judge had done in the way of committal, was contrary to law, he did not see why the power of committal should be placed under greater legislative restraint."

MR. W. M. TORRENS, while admitting the courtesy of the Attorney General, contended that even if the law were sufficient and there had been an infraction of it, the House of Commons was the place where the matter should be taken notice of. He asked whether it was consistent with recent legislation that a County Court Judge should commit a man for not paying an instalment, should commit him again and again for the same reason, and so by repeated committals re-impose the law of imprisonment for debt? When an infraction of the law had been made by any Judge, it was the duty of the House to mark its sense of the matter as a warning to others.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, as to the personal question every one who knew how his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General conducted himself in the House would feel that there was no intentional discourtesy shown by him in the matter,

upon full and authentic information. At present he considered they were not in possession of such authentic and full information as to enable them to interfere in the matter. The County Court Judges were not responsible to the House of Commons, but to the Lord Chancellor, and hon. Members did not know what information the Lord Chancellor might have on the subject. He hoped his hon. Friend would accept the assurance that the matter should not be allowed to pass without inquiry, and would be content that the case should be left in the hands of the Lord Chancellor, to whom it properly belonged.

Question put, "That the words pro-
Question."
posed to be left out stand part of the

18: Majority 56.
The House divided:-Ayes 74; Noes

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND
ART.

SUPPLY-considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £13,950, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for Grants to Scottish Universities."

DR. C. CAMERON moved the reduction of the Vote by £200, being the amount proposed for a Chair of Theory and Practice of Teaching in Edinburgh University. He did so, because no information had been vouchsafed to the Scottish public as to the nature of the scheme

proposed by Government, and how far | endowment of Chairs of the Theory and it would interfere with the present sys- Practice of Education in the Universities tem of Normal Training Colleges, and of Edinburgh and St. Andrews. In because, in the absence of such infor- order to make their money go as far as mation, it appeared to him that the pro- possible, they resolved to make their posed Chair was likely to do more harm endowments conditional upon the Gothan good. They were aware that the vernment consenting to supplement it mass of the schoolmasters and mistresses from the Imperial funds; and in order of Scotland were educated at the Nor- to induce Government to do this, they mal Training Colleges-institutions kept attempted to obtain a recommendation up at an expense to the country of to that effect from the Scotch Endowed £21,000 a-year. In these Training Schools Commissioners. A considerable Colleges the students not only received amount of evidence in support of the instruction in those branches of educa- project was accordingly brought before tion which they would afterwards be these gentlemen. It was, however, of called upon to teach, but they were exer- the vaguest and most general descripcised in the art of imparting their know- tion, and failed, he believed, to convince ledge in the practising schools attached an influential section of the Commisto the Training Colleges. Under the sioners that the proposed Chair was at Scotch Education Code, provision was all desirable. On that point, however, already made whereby students desirous they did not report; but upon the point of combining attendance on University before the Committee they reported in Chairs with the instruction afforded them the most unqualified terms, for the inat their Training Colleges could do so; formation of the Government, that they but unfortunately the pecuniary condi- saw no prospect of being able to recomtions imposed by the Department in mend the application of any fund tocase of this attendance were such that wards the foundation of such Chairs in it was far from being the interest of addition to what the Bell Trustees were the Training Colleges to encourage the prepared to provide. It was hardly to students to avail themselves of the per- be expected that the Universities conmission. Now, if it had been proposed cerned would rest satisfied with this reto remedy this, and by means of scholar- fusal, and accordingly a deputation ships or otherwise to encourage the stu- waited on the Duke of Richmond in the dents of Training Colleges to possess May of last year, with a view of pressthemselves of a University education, he ing the matter upon Government. The would not have grudged a much larger noble Duke expressed himself as quite sum of money than that proposed. As inclined to give the matter a favourable it was, however, the student at a Train- consideration, and requested the depuing College who at present tried to com- tation to get the four Scotch Universibine attendance on the prescribed Uni- ties to draw up a definite scheme and versity classes with his other studies, lay it before him. Accordingly they did found that his time barely sufficed for so in June, 1874, and a copy of that the work laid before him. If, then, it scheme he held in his hand. Now, it was proposed to render attendance on was a remarkable feature in connection the Lectures on the Theory and Practice with that scheme that the Chair of Eduof Teaching compulsory, this could only cation figured in it as a mere accident, be done by substituting them for one of and that in all its essential parts it could the other courses of University lectures be carried out just as well without that among which the student was at present Chair as with it. It proposed that Queen's permitted to select, and the result would scholars should have the option, under be that so far from increasing the gene- certain conditions, of attending a Uniral range of the education of the versity instead of a Normal School, and teachers of Scotland, the proposed new of attaining at the end of a two years' Chair would have a directly contrary curriculum a diploma which should be tendency. But, in order to understand accepted as a certificate of competency. the full significance of the proposal be- It proposed that during their attendance fore the Committee, it was necessary to at the University these students should look at its history. Some years ago receive instruction in the Theory and the trustees of the Bell Bequest decided Practice of Education, either from a to devote a portion of their funds to the Professor of the subject, where such a Dr. C. Cameron

Professorship existed-namely, at Edin- | lated to clash with the existing system burgh and St. Andrews, or at the Nor- of educating teachers. At present mal Schools, or otherwise as might be teachers were trained in the Training arranged between the Department and Colleges. These Colleges were admitted the Universities where there were no to be doing their work well, and they such Chairs, as at Glasgow and Aber- were approvingly referred to in the deen. The scheme further recommended recently-issued Report of the Scotch that any student obtaining the degree Education Department. They had acof M.A. should, on complying with commodation for 800 students, male and certain conditions, be entitled to a female, and sent out annually between teacher's certificate of the highest class 400 and 500 male teachers, which was awarded by the Department. And the far more than enough to supply the remarkable thing in this part of the vacancies in the schools. Last December scheme was that the new Chair was there were no fewer than 537 newlynever mentioned in connection with it. certificated teachers, and that was equal He would not stop to argue the merits to a staff of teachers in the country of of the joint proposal of the Scotch about 9,000, for he understood that Universities, and he would merely say 6 per cent annually was the number of that if it was to be adopted it should vacancies that occurred. The total be adopted after consideration and dis- number of certificated masters in the cussion, and not in silence, under cover schools of Scotland at present was of a paltry Vote like that before the only 2,357, so the Training Colleges Committee. If Government had not re- were, as he had said, far more than solved to adopt the joint scheme, it was able to supply the number of teachers as premature to ask Parliament to vote which was required. The Report of this money as it would have been when the Education Department took notice the deputation waited on the Duke of of this fact, and mentioned that the Richmond in May last year. Even if time might soon come when it would Government had resolved to adopt the be necessary for them to restrict the scheme proposed by the Universities, he number of pupils. If, then, the Normal had shown that the Chair of the Theory Colleges already provided sufficient and Practice of Education was a mere means for educating teachers, why accident in it; and if it was desirable should they have a new system forced to try the Chairs as an experiment in on the country? Besides, they had no connection with it, that could be easily evidence whatever that the Education done by means of the funds at the com- Department had ever considered the mand of the Bell Trustees. Meanwhile, matter of this Chair. The Scotch Eduhe held that it was altogether premature cation Act provided for the recognition to ask them to saddle the country with of graduates from the Universities as an expenditure of £400 a-year-£200 qualified, to a large extent, to receive for Edinburgh and £200 for St. Andrews certificates of competency as teachers, -and contended that the House should and he was glad to say that some not be asked to consent to any change graduates were taking advantages of in a matter so important to the training the facilities that were offered them. of the teachers of Scotland without a The great difficulty about the proposed much fuller and more satisfactory ex- Chair was that nobody knew what it planation of the intentions of the Go- was for. He had heard a great variety vernment than had as yet been afforded of opinions as to how it was to be carried them. on. The Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was to be confined to theory; but, had told them, on a former occasion, on the other hand, he had heard the promoters of the scheme speak as if it were intended to combine theory and

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £13,750, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for Grants to Scot-practice. All this went to show that tish Universities."—(Dr. Cameron.)

MR. WHITELAW supported the proposal of his hon. Colleague, as he could not regard the institution of the proposed Chairs otherwise than as calcu

there was no definite agreement as to how the Chair was to be carried on. At any rate, Parliament had had no statement laid before it as to what was to be the constitution of the Chair; and he

did not think it wise for Parliament to | Church Bodies, and it was well known vote money without knowing what was that Scotland desired religious teaching. to be done with it. It was desirable Well, he would like to know how the that Parliament should take cognisance teachers could get training for religious of the fact that new appointments would teaching in the Universities, and how, have to be made, and surely it was in- further, even if they did get it, it could advisable they should be made, thereby be tested? Altogether he disapproved creating vested interests, until Parlia- of the proposal to found the Chair, and ment had satisfied itself whether or not he hoped the Committee would support they were desirable. If a modification his hon. Colleague in the Motion he had of the existing system of providing a made. supply of teachers were desirable, then, MR. LYON PLAYFAIR: My hon. surely, such a scheme should be pre- Friend the Member for Glasgow (Dr. pared and digested by the Education Cameron) mixes up two questions which Department, and submitted to Parlia- are essentially distinct. Much could be ment for approval, in order that they said by me for, and my hon. Friend has might have some means of judging of said all he could against, a scheme for the wisdom of the proposal. At pre- educating primary schoolmasters at the sent they had no indication whatever Scotch Universities; but that question as to the views of the Education De- is not before us. I might, for instance, partment. Again, the Normal Col- remind him that for generations, long leges existed chiefly by voluntary sup- before Training Schools existed, the port, and he thought they had a right Universities of Scotland formed the only to know the exact proposals in regard training ground for parochial teachers. to this Chair. It would be most un- In fact, in the best days of the history fair to them to proceed to institute a of Scotch schools, when the parish Chair that would compete with them schoolmaster was the great civilizing without making them aware of what it agent, the Universities formed the only was proposed to do. There was another means through which he was trained to point. In each of the Normal Colleges his work. At that time the Church of there were three, four, or five lecturers of Scotland made it a pious duty of the on the subject of Practical Teaching, Presbyteries to send up young men to and if so many were required at present, the Universities to be trained as teachers he did not see how the same purpose and ministers. I would have thought was to be effected by the appointment of that the hon. Member for Glasgow who one Professor. The University educa- sits on the opposite side (Mr. Whitelaw), tion of teachers was going on at present would have been inspired by these Conin connection with the rules of the Edu-servative traditions of his Church, and cation Department, and in conformity I expected him to welcome the foundawith the Education Act. In fact, as he had already stated, considerable facilities were provided for University students qualifying as teachers; and if it were desirable to increase them, he ventured to think it could be done in some better way than that now proposed. Let the Education Department prepare and digest a scheme, and submit it to Parliament. Then, he submitted, it would be time enough to ask Parliament to vote money. For his own part, he thought the best plan to adopt would be one in which the present system was left pretty much as it was, and greater facilities and encouragement given to students to attend art classes in the University at the same time as they were receiving their pedagogic training at the Normal Colleges. The Normal Schools of Scotland were kept up and governed by its Mr. Whitelaw

tion of this Chair of Education as a most Conservative measure. The denominational Training Schools, of which there are now six in Scotland, are quite modern institutions. They have done their past work well, and are doing their existing work admirably. From these schools a certain number of their teachers in training are sent to the Universities to receive a higher education than they themselves profess to give. I hope that the Training Schools and Universities will long co-operate in advancing the important work of training teachers. My hon. Friend (Dr. Cameron) opposes this Vote as a source of danger to the Training Schools, because he points to a scheme which the four Universities sent to the Education Department, offering themselves also as training institutions for such teachers as the Education De