were passed they would not only be | tory proportions of this kind. It must guilty of inflicting great injury upon an be remembered that Ireland was an individual, but they would deprive the agricultural country with 300,000 holdUniversity of St. Andrews of this Chair ings under £8 value; and the defective of Humanity, which was not a desirable attendance of the agricultural populathing to do. He sympathized fully with tion was one of the great difficulties the views of the hon. Baronet, and he they had to deal with in England. No disliked as much as he did private pre- doubt an average attendance of 395,390 sentation to University Chairs; but he with 1,006,511 on the roll looked very suggested the question should not be bad. But the numbers on the roll were raised in this form. not, as in England, those who appeared Question put. on it on the last day of the month preceding the examination-they comprised every child who had made a single attendance during the year. Emigration and change of school must also make this most inaccurate; it showed obviously

The Committee divided:-Ayes 12; Noes 111: Majority 99.

Original Question put, and agreed to. (2.) £1,500, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c., Scotland.

(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £488,668, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland."

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not the actual number of individual pupils, the same child appearing probably on several rolls. He thought it would be well if in future a better opportunity could be given of comparing the results in the two countries, for at present very erroneous deductions might be drawn. With reference to Ireland it was stated that only 36 per cent of the children on the rolls attended instrucSIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH tion, and that 64 per cent were consaid, he regretted that this Estimate spicuous by their absence;" but that had not come under the consideration of Estimate must be interpreted by the the Committee at an earlier date. But circumstance to which he had just rethe delay had enabled them to have ferred. They had been told that in access not only to the original, but the Great Britain 42 per cent of the children Supplementary Estimate, as well as the on the rolls passed in reading, while in Bill of the Government with regard to Ireland the proportion was 18 per cent; the income of national school teachers, but in discussing this question the disand the Report of the National Board of parity should be borne in mind. In IreIrish Education for 1874. They were, land, in 1869, out of 243,288 children therefore, enabled more usefully to dis- 171,291 passed in reading, being 70 per cuss the great question before them than cent of the number examined, while of they could have done at an earlier period 130,791 examined in writing 71,824 of the Session. He would not detain passed, or 55 per cent; and he believed the Committee with many general re- that if they dealt merely with the promarks on the question of Irish national portion of passes Ireland would show a education; but it was right he should very good result as compared with Engstate shortly that it appeared from the land. In Ireland, in 1872, 87.6 per Report of 1874 the system was pro- cent passed in reading, 82.0 per cent gressing and extending throughout the passed in writing, and in arithmetic country. The number of schools was 71.2 per cent; while in England there now 7,357, being an increase of 97; and passed 88.6 per cent in reading, 82:3 per of children on the roll 1,006,511, an in- cent in writing, and in arithmetic 72.2 crease of 31,815; the average attend- per cent. In Ireland, in 1873, 87.7 per ance was 395,390, being an increase of cent passed in reading, 83.3 per cent in 22,019, in spite of a considerable out-writing, and in arithmetic 70-4 per cent; break of scarlatina, which would tend while in England there passed in 1873 to increase the irregularity of attend-in reading 88.6 per cent, in writing 81.6 ance. He did not say that he looked on that average attendance of children on the roll as satisfactory; but Ireland was not alone at fault in showing unsatisfac

per cent, and in arithmetic 72.1 per cent; and in 1874 in Ireland there passed in reading 86.8 per cent, in writing 86.7 per cent, and in arithmetic 69.0 per cent;

while in England there passed in reading | the national schools were 355,320. In 88.3 per cent, in writing 80.5 per cent, 1853 the Parliamentary grant was and in arithmetic 70.9 per cent. The £182,000; the children of school-going percentage of examined who passed in age were 1,550,000; the children at the all three subjects was in Ireland 62.7 per national schools were 550,631. In 1863 cent, and in England 59.2 per cent, and the Parliamentary grant was £306,000; it should be remembered that the stand- the children of school-going age were ard of Irish education would not com- 1,430,000; the children at the national pare unfavourably with that of England. schools were 840,569; and in 1873, when It had been said that, in consequence of the Parliamentary grant was £542,000, the alleged unsatisfactory condition of and the children of school-going age national education in Ireland, a very 1,335,000, the children at the national large proportion of the Irish people were school were 974,696. A Census should illiterate. It could not be denied that be taken of persons between 15 and 20 the Census of 1871 showed a very large of those who might have been in the proportion of illiteracy in Ireland; but, national schools from 1861, when half in the first place, it was not quite fair to the children were on the rolls, to 1871, take all above five years of age and say when three-fourths were on the rolls. that the proportion of illiterate persons In 1861 the percentage of those who above that age was due to the defective could not read or write was 27.3; in system of education in Ireland. Few 1871 the percentage was 17.5. It was children of any class under five years not fair, he repeated, to charge on the could read and write. But they must national system of education all the not forget that no Educational Census of illiteracy of Ireland. In fact, the system the people ever had been taken in Great was only struggling until 1853. The Britain; but in Ireland they had had an great proportion of emigrants from 1851 Educational Census, and if it were at- to 1873 were literates; the most illiterate tempted in England its results might stopped behind. How, he asked, could not be very dissimilar from those shown the national system be responsible for in Ireland. But, more than that, the the 1,856,000 children who were in the illiteracy of Ireland could be distinctly country in 1833, but not at its schools, or shown by the Census of the last four for the 1,705,000 children in the country decennial periods to have diminished, in 1843? It was not until 1863 that and that in spite of the large emigration they could fairly say that a considerable that had occurred, that emigration being proportion of the whole number of largely composed of the better educated children in Ireland came under the inof the lower class. He found that in the fluence of the system of national edufirst Educational Census of 1841 there cation. He had detained the Committee were in Ireland 52.7 per cent of illiterate upon these two points because many persons; in 1851 46.8 per cent; in 1861 statements had been made as to the 38.7 per cent; and in 1871 33-4 per cent. general failure of the Irish national Whatever value they might attach to system of education, and he thought it these figures, they at least showed that only fair to show that there had been, a satisfactory improvement was going at any rate, much exaggeration in the on. Besides, nothing could be more statements which had been made against unfair than to attribute to the national it. But he must not be taken as exsystem of education any large propor- pressing an opinion that the condition tion of the illiteracy of Ireland; for, of national education in Ireland was after all, it was only during compara- satisfactory, or that the system was not tively the last few years that the system capable of very considerable and subhad assumed the proportions that would stantial improvement. He would thereentitle it to be called national. In 1833, fore proceed to deal with the figures of when the Parliamentary grant for the the Estimate now before the Committee, school system was £25,000, the number and in doing so he hoped he should be of children of school-going age was able to show how he considered it pos1,963,000; the number of children at sible to make improvements in the systhe national schools was 107,042. tem as regarded the condition of those In 1843 the Parliamentary grant was engaged in administering it and also to £50,000; the children of school-going lead to a better and more thorough eduage were 2,060,000, and the children at cation. He would not dwell on those

Sir Michael Hicks-Beach

them. They proposed to meet this deficiency in two ways-one way was more easy to deal with it than the other. With regard to vested and non-vested schools, of which there were over 5,000 in Ireland, with only 183 residences provided, it had been proposed, as would be seen by the correspondence already published, to place the provision as to residences for teachers of non-vested schools on the same footing as the provision for

portions of the Estimate in which the sums proposed to be voted were similar to those of the preceding year, but would content himself with drawing attention to the difference which existed between the last and the present year. He would first allude to the increase under the two heads administration and inspection. That arose from an addition to the salaries of clerks and inspectors, which had been completely earned, and which was recommended by the Treasury Com-vested schools, and that grants should be mittee which sat upon the subject. Further, there was a decrease of charge of £3,000 under the head of Book Department. That arose from a change which had been recommended by the Committee upon the educational system, by which the full price of the books was now charged to those who purchased them for their children. There was no longer a loss to the Treasury on that head. He then came to the great distinction between the Estimate of the present year and that of last year-that was that while, on the one hand, there appeared in the Estimate of this year an increase of £5,000 for the residences of vested national schools, there was a decrease of £115,000 under the head of payments for results. He thought it right here to deal with those three questions which had been so prominently brought before the House on several occasions he meant proposals to grant pensions to teachers of national schools in Ireland, to improve their existing residences or provide new ones, and to increase their annual incomes. First with regard to pensions-that was a question of very great difficulty. He stated in March last that he would bring a scheme on the subject before the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but there were difficulties involved in it, and he regretted to say that he had not been able this year to make any proposal. On the question of residences, the Government made certain proposals which he thought were likely to have a very beneficial effect. This question was, to his mind, of more importance than either of the other two. Nothing was more likely to destroy the efficiency of the teachers or place them in a more unpleasant condition than the fact of being unable to procure a decent residence within a proper distance or the necessity of occupying an unsuitable one, which could not increase the respect of their pupils for

made not exceeding £100, or half the cost of each residence to aid in their erection. That was comparatively simple. But with regard to non-vested schools the question was more complicated. They had no security that those schools, or anything connected with them, would be permanently devoted to educational purposes; and it was impossible that grants in aid of residences which might in a year or two be turned to other purposes than education could be made. Therefore, a suggestion of the National Board of Education had been adopted, which he hoped would be attended with beneficial results. He had to-day a Notice on the Paper for the introduction of a short Bill which would include the provision of residences for teachers of non-vested national schools among the objects for which the Board of Works in Ireland were authorized to lend money at 5 per cent, repayable in 35 years. If by such loans, or in any other way, proper residences could be provided for the teachers of non-vested schools, the National Board of Education would be enabled by a Vote of £5,000 in the Supplementary Estimates to pay a certain proportion of the annual sum for the repayment of these loans not exceeding one-half, and then to share with the locality, as with the persons interested in each school, the burden of the provision for the residence of the teachers. But in the cases of the vested and non-vested schools care would be taken that the teacher should not suffer and that the boon given in this way really went to his benefit. The Government had acted on the principle that local resources should be taxed in order to evoke aid from the State. With regard to the increase of the national school teachers, they found in last year's Estimate a sum which had been proposed three years ago by the late Government, and which in the year 1874

had risen to £117,000, for payments to | teachers by way of results. They considered that they ought to deal with this question as they found it; but, at the same time, they felt that the whole of this sum being devoted to payment by results, the teachers of small schools in thinly-populated districts were placed at a disadvantage. Therefore, instead of renewing that whole sum for payment of results, they proposed to make an addition of £60,000 a-year to the salaries of the national school teachers, and grant a certain sum by way of result fees in what might be called half the schools in which result fees were last year given. At the present moment the total annual emoluments of male teachers of the first class, first division, were £116 178. 10d., of which £52 was salary. The first class, second division, £83 78. 7d., of which £38 was salary. In the second class, £62 28. 4d., of which £30 was salary; and in the third class, £43 138. 5d., of which £24 was salary. In the first class of female teachers, first division, £93 28. 5d., of which £42 was salary; first class, second division, £69 5s. 3d., of which £30 was salary; second class, £48 0s. 10d., of which £24 was salary; and in the third class, £37 11s. 8d., of which £20 was salary. In many cases also the teachers of smaller schools, who were mainly the lower-classed teachers, had ample time to obtain a part of their livelihood from other sources. Now, the Vote of £60,000 to which he had alluded for additional salaries would give the following increase to the national school teachers:-Roughly speaking, it would give to each male teacher of the first class £6; second class, £8; and third class, £8: and to each female teacher of the first class, £6; of the second class, £6; and of the third class, £5. The assistant teachers would, of course, be included in the provision to which he had referred. Having made this allocation of the sum which they considered they had a right to deal with, as it appeared in the Estimate which was last year voted for Irish national education by Parliament, they had to go further and consider in what other way they could propose to make that increase in the income of the teachers which was sought for above that amount. It appeared to them that in making any such increase nothing could be more unreasonable than to make it entirely from

Sir Michael Hicks-Beach

Imperial resources; and if local resources were to be brought in, they could only practically be so in two shapes

either by way of rates or school fees. With regard to rates, he thought if the Committee looked back to the past history of Irish national education they would see that from the very beginning it was contemplated that local aid should form a very considerable proportion of the expenditure for that purpose. There was a letter from the late Lord Derby which showed, as clearly as possible, that he contemplated that local subscriptions should form a fair proportion of that amount. A Report of the National Commissioners for Education showed the same thing, and it was also recognized by his Predecessor in office (the Marquess of Hartington) in a letter addressed by him to the National Board of Irish Education on the 1st of July, 1872. That letter stated that—

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Her Majesty's Government have observed with great regret the small amount of local contributions to the cost of national education in Ireland. It appears from the Report of the Ireland, that, in the year 1868, the whole exRoyal Commissioners on Primary Education in pense of the maintenance of the teachers amounted to £323,795, and that the sum of £270,724 was contributed by the Government, whilst only £45,308 was obtained from school fees, and £11,993 from subscriptions and donations, including small endowments." There had been scarcely any increase to local contributions. He found from the Report of the National Board for 1874 that while the teachers received £448,000 from the Government, only £57,355 was received in school fees, and only £16,196 from local contributions. During last year the payments by pupils increased by £3,383, and voluntary contributions increased by £1,240, while the residences the teachers possessed were valued at £6,400. The National Board, in their Report this year, stated that of the whole sums received by the teachers, 85-8 per cent was paid by the State, and only 14-2 paid by local contributions; and, therefore, the Government had felt that the time had come when it was absolutely necessary to check this continued increase of Imperial grants for Irish education without any corresponding increase in the sum derived from local resources. These local contributions had not been forthcoming and never had been insisted upon. It had been assumed in Ireland that nearly the whole