duced a clause dealing with the question | great error to assume that allowing the of survey. The end of the Session, how- shipowner to place that line where he ever, was approaching, and the Notice pleased would afford no security against Paper was getting more and more recklessness. At present, there was no crowded with Amendments upon the check whatever except that which was Bill, and those to whom this great public supplied by the vigilance of the repreinterest was entrusted had to see how sentatives of the Board of Trade, or far they could free the Government from rather of an absent Member of that embarrassment in the matter without House (Mr. Plimsoll), who had reprecompromising the object they had in sentatives at the ports, through whom view. Under these circumstances, there- the Board was put in motion. But supfore, the hon. Member for Derby and posing the owner was compelled by Act those who supported him were willing, of Parliament to paint a load line on his although most reluctantly, for the pur- ships, and to send a record of it to the pose of facilitating Public Business, to Board of Trade, the Department would forego the question of surveys and cer- by that means be informed that the line tificates, and he was certain that in doing was either a reasonable or proper one, in so the House would see that they were which case it would have no need to inmaking a great sacrifice. They were not terfere, or that it was the contrary, and disposed, however, to stop even there, for allowed for excessive loading; and then with respect to the question of the load line, the Board could inform the owner that if also, they had asked themselves whether he loaded the vessel to such an extent, it was possible for them to meet the wishes they would not permit it to go to sea. At of the Government and to aid them in pass- any rate, the Board of Trade would be ing the Bill. That question, however, was advised beforehand of the necessity of a totally different one, and it presented looking after the ship; and by this itself under two aspects. Some persons legislation, the owners would be made thought that the Government ought to instruments of the Government in guardask Parliament to enact that an official ing against their own misdeeds. This maximum load line should be drawn would not be the only advantage gained upon every sea-going merchant ship; by the proposal, for a painted line would but such a proposal would undoubtedly enable officers or men before joining a give rise to a great deal of very reason- ship to ascertain to what extent she was able opposition and discussion, and if to be loaded; while in ports where overpersevered in, it would evidently cause loading had been habitual on the part discussion upon refinements and distinc- of certain owners, those persons would, tions as to which they could not hope to by the publication of the load line be secure general agreement in a short time. brought under the moral influence of the He therefore felt that it ought not to be people among whom they resided. raised during the present Session. There preferred educative arrangements to was, however, another proposal with re- harsh laws for the regulation of trade. gard to the load line, which he believed He thought that many men who overwas altogether unobjectionable, and that loaded their ships did not know the was that the load line to be drawn upon danger they incurred; and that they and the ship's side should be that which was others would cease to overload if they known as "the owner's load line." He had to do it in the face of day. Whentherefore now asked the House to de- ever they endeavoured to legislate on clare that no ship should be allowed to this subject they were met by the preproceed to sea with cargo or human sentation of pretended difficulties, which beings on board unless she bore upon were no difficulties to those who were her side a load line drawn by her owner masters of the subject, and he hoped he beyond which he himself did not propose should not be thought rude in saying to load her. This proposal was a very that the Board of Trade sometimes erred moderate one, indeed, it seemed to re- in deferring to the representations made commend itself to the House by many to them. On a late occasion, after he favourable considerations, for it had the (Mr. Reed) brought forward the subject advantage of having already received the of a test respecting iron, the right hon. sanction of Her Majesty's Government, Baronet the President of the Board of and had been inserted in the 33rd clause Trade entered into communication with of their original Bill, It would be a those whose interests would be affected

He

MR. NORWOOD seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That to the

end of the Question, in order to add the words "the overloading of merchant ships cannot be effectually restrained unless owners and captains are prohibited from loading their ships beyond sanctioned by the Government, or submitted to a load-line limit of safety which has either been the Government for record,"-(Mr. Reed,) -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the

Question."

by the adoption of the proposition, and the | House upon his Amendment, with a adverse answers he received were printed view to ascertain who it was in that and circulated among Members of the House who refused the people of this House. Again, the Department created a country, in regard to a question of life difficulty with reference to grain cargoes and death, so reasonable a concession as by writing to Lloyd's and obtaining that which he now proposed. in reply one of the silliest letters he had ever read, which also was circulated among hon. Members of the House. There was no necessity whatever for eliciting these obstructive views from persons outside, whose interests were adverse to the public interest, and parading them before Parliament as reasons against the legislation which the public interest demanded. The function of Government should be to tread them down. He denied altogether that the opinions. of the secretary of Lloyd's, or even of the shipowners, were the opinions which should mainly guide Parliament in the matter. It was the duty of Parliament to protect the public interests, and he hoped it would not be induced to defer to such considerations. He regretted that legislation was constantly hampered by the presentation of such diverse opinions put forth in opposition to Motions put upon the Paper of the House. He hoped the Government would accept the proposal, for he could not find a single reason against it. Adverse opinions had been expressed with regard to a load line, but not against that which he was advocating, and he thought there would be a unanimous opinion on that side of the House, shared in by a large number of Gentlemen on the opposite side, as to the reasonableness of his proposition. In suggesting it as a compromise, he believed that it would operate against the threatened sacrifice of life during the coming winter, and he hoped the Government would not refuse it. He believed it would have been open to the Government to have passed a measure against the sending to sea of rotten ships; and he therefore hoped the Government would not now call upon the House to divide against this moderate proposal. The proposal was presented with no hostile intention, and if the Government would fairly meet the suggestion, he believed that hon. Gentlemen on that side would aid in getting rid of all the outside Amendments, and endeavour to render the Government every aid in passing the measure. Should the Government not do so, however, he should feel it his duty to take the sense of the

Mr. E. J. Reed

LORD ESLINGTON said, he could see plainly that unless some proposal to fix a load line was adopted, the Bill would be overladen with Amendments, and in all probability would founder. He believed his hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Reed) treated with something like contempt the Report of the Royal Commission which had considered the subject, but it might not be out of place to call attention to some of the evidence given before that Commission. One of the witnessses-a naval architect, and pre-eminent for his ability and experience-struck every Member of the Commission by the boldness with which he proposed Government interference. That witness was the hon. Member for Pembroke himself. Before noticing the evidence, however, he (Lord Eslington) wished to point out that the hon. Member in his speech had by no means explained or justified the Motion which he had submitted to the House. The Motion proposed, as alternatives-first, a load line drawn by the Board of Trade; and, secondly, a load line drawn by the shipowner; but the hon. Member had addressed himself to the latter only, which of the two did he wish the Committee to adopt?

MR. E. J. REED said, he thought he had explained fully that every owner would be at liberty to send to the Board of Trade a notice of the load line in order that it might be recorded.

LORD ESLINGTON thought it clear that one of the proposals was that the Government should fix load lines.

trary, the loss of ships was more frequently due to light loading than to over loading. He heard with regret the hou. Member for Pembroke (Mr E. J. Reed) say that this was a matter of life and death, and therefore he hoped that the Government would make certain concessions. If that meant anything, it meant that the Government were inclined to maintain a system which resulted in loss of life at sea; when, of course, they were as anxious as everybody else to do all they could to save life. This was a temporary measure, and the suggestion was, that they should come to some arrangement about the load line, but he did not think that the best thing would be to refer the whole thing to the Government. Probably, instead of attempting to define what should be the load line, it would be better that they should merely adopt the rule that there should be three inches of freeboard to every foot of submersion.

to restrain by one process the sending of unseaworthy ships to sea, the House was called upon to affirm that the sending to sea of unseaworthy ships could not be restrained except by another and a particular process. Therefore, it seemed a proposal intended to be brought into competition with that of the Government, and that the effect would be to strike out of the Government Bill those parts which related to the powers to be given to the officers of the Board of Trade, and in lieu of them to adopt some form of load line. That was the first proposition as it stood upon the Paper, but there was a third difficulty which had been raised in the course of the discussion. The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Reed) proposed that the House should declare that a load line was necessary, and that it should be either a line sanctioned by the Government, or submitted to the Government for record. But when the Government THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- began to examine that proposition with QUER said, he thought that, before all a view to see whether it could be prothings, it was most important before perly incorporated with their measure, going to a division that the House should they had their attention directed to the have a clear understanding of the exact difficulties which would arise from the nature of the issue which it had to introduction of a load line sanctioned by decide. For, whereas when they came Government. The hon. Gentleman, howdown to the House it was exceedingly ever, when he came to make his speech, doubtful from the terms of the Notice threw over that load line altogether, and placed on the Paper what that issue appeared, though not very clearly and was, after the speeches they had heard formally, to withdraw that part of his and the whispers which had been passed Amendment, and to trust to what was about the House, it seemed to him that called "the owners' load line," which they were in greater perplexity than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) ever. The difficulty which he felt when supposed would still be submitted to the he saw the Notice in the first instance Government. Now, the House ought to was this he did not feel clear whether understand on what it was going to vote. it was intended as a Resolution to be The objections to a load line sanctioned adopted with some additions in the Go- by the Government were of such a nature vernment Bill in Committee, or whether that it would be quite impossible for it was to be understood, according to a them to accept it at such a time, and more natural interpretation, as a counter with such little opportunity for discussing proposal to be submitted to them, and it. Whether they could adopt the lesser upon which a vote was to be taken proposal of a load line to be submitted which, if favourable to the Amendment, to the Government for record was a would lead to a rejection of the Bill. serious and an important question also, He could not but perceive, if the ques-on which he wished to say a few words. tion was simply one for the introduction into the Bill of a clause for a load line, it was hardly necessary to move any Amendment at that stage, for it would have been competent for any hon. Member to make that Motion in Committee. On the other hand, when he came to look at its language, he saw that, on going into Committee on a Bill intended

But first he would remark that the uncertainty of the proceeding which the hon. Gentleman himself had indicated, furnished strong grounds why the House should pause before adopting the proposal to which the hon. Member had at last brought himself. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would once more remind the House of their posi