| to conceive that the discretion thus given to the Visitor was intended to be used, or that it should visions of the scheme laid before him by the be used otherwise than in reference to the proCapitular Body."

No action was taken by the Board upon that Report, nor did he see that any further steps were within the powers of the Estates Committee or of the Board. The Estates Committee in the Report expressed their opinion, he thought, clearly and strongly, as adverse to the course adopted by the right rev. Prelate. In that opinion, he (the Earl of Chichester) entirely concurred. It was quite true that the delay complained of inflicted a considerable hardship on the incumbents of small livings in the patronage of the Chapter, since it indefi

31st and 32nd Victoria, chap. 114, unless they comply with a stipulation that has no reference to the scheme or the Act under which it is framed, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners intend to acquiesce in such refusal, or whether they will in the next Session of Parliament introduce a Bill to amend the Act by either dispensing with such consent altogether or giving an appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury? The noble Lord said, that the question was one of considerable local interest, and the whole of the circumstances had been already published. The right rev. Prelate, actuated, no doubt, by conscientious conviction, had refused his assent to the scheme because it did not contain two conditions which the Dean and Chapter and the Commis-nitely postponed the consideration of the sioners both said they had not sufficient funds to carry out; but it was evident from the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that they did not approve of the action of the right rev. Prelate. If that was the case he wished to know whether the Commissioners were going to allow the matter to rest there. Great benefit would accrue from the adoption of the scheme, and he wished to know whether that benefit was to be lost because the right rev. Prelate wished to force his will upon an unwilling Dean and Chapter.

THE EARL OF CHICHESTER said that, so far as he knew, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had no intention of applying to Parliament for additional powers, and that, in fact, it was not the duty or the practice of this Commission to originate legislation. In answer to the noble Lord's other Question-namely, whether the Commissioners acquiesced in the course taken by the right rev. Prelate, he would just refer to what had actually occurred. In the Report of the Estates Committee, dated the 30th of January, 1873, they stated

"The scheme for giving effect to this agreement is framed under certain statutory provisions which it may be observed have now been applied, or are in course of being applied, to all the other Capitular Bodies in the Kingdom, the only two Chapters which have not so commuted their estates being now in communication with the Commissioners with that view, and one of these provisions makes the consent of the Visitor of the Dean and Chapter a necessary condition to enable the Commissioners, after agreeing with the Chapter for such commutation, to submit for ratification by Her Majesty in Council a scheme for carrying out the agreement. It appears, however, to the Committee impossible Lord Vernon

local claims with the view of their augmentation. The delay was also to be regretted on the ground that the Chapter estates continued to be granted out on beneficial leases, and their unimproved and unimprovable condition was prolonged. That was a loss not only to the Church, but to the country. He did not feel called upon to say a word either in favour of or against the project of the right rev. Prelate to which the Dean and Chapter refused their consent, or, rather, to which they demurred, beyond this, that his late friend the Dean of Lichfield

(Dean Champneys) was the last man in the world to offer an obstructive opposition to any scheme which, in his opinion, might tend to the welfare or efficiency of the Church.

THE BISHOP OF LICHFIELD said, the course adopted by the noble Lord who had asked that Question seemed to be unusual and inconvenient. A discretion was given by law to the Bishop to withhold his consent from a scheme for the transfer of the capitular estates to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. that discretion was used unlawfully, the Law. remedy lay in an appeal to a Court of

If

If the discretion so vested in the Bishop was in itself inexpedient, it could be withdrawn by the Legislature. The question related, in fact, to a conflict of discretions. The Dean and Residentiary Chapter of Lichfield had a discretion to refuse to bring into operation the provisions contained in two Acts of Parliament for the revival of two suspended Canonries. The assumption of the noble Lord that he (the Bishop of Lichfield) was the only person to blame, seemed to

[281]; Agricultural Holdings (England) (recomm.) [277]; Ecclesiastical Fees Redistribution* [282]. Considered as amended-Third Reading--Copyright of Designs (re-comm.) * [270]; Public Works Loans [269], and passed. Withdrawn-Post Office (Superannuation and Gratuities) [245]; Metropolis Gas Companies (re-comm.) [224].

*

CLASSIFIED BRITISH SHIPS.

QUESTION.

him unfair. It was said that he hindered | Considered as amended Unseaworthy Ships the augmentation of poor benefices in the patronage of the Chapter. If the Dean and Chapter were to agree to his proposal, he would sign their scheme, and then the difficuly would be at an end. The other party was as much to blame as he was, unless their reasons were altogether good, and his altogether bad. That remained to be proved, and ought not to be assumed. It was not likely that he should have disagreed with an honoured friend like the late Dean Champneys, without some strong reason touching his sense of duty. That was not the time or place to state all his reasons, some of which were of a very delicate and personal kind; but he might say that when a large sum of public money was to be placed at the disposal of any corporate body, the common sense of mankind required that body to fill up its vacancies, and make itself in every way as efficient as possible. The General Chapter of Lichfield had passed a resolution that the number of canonries ought to be raised to six, by the revival of the two which were now suspended. It was not the case, as the noble Lord had said, that he (the Bishop of Lichfield) was trying to impose his will upon the Dean and Residentiary Chapter; but that he was endeavouring to carry out the Resolution which the General Chapter had adopted, and to bring into operation the provisions of two Acts of Parliament for the revival of suspended Canonries.

MR. GORST asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether he can undertake to lay before the House, at the beginning of next Session, a Return which will show, approximately-1, the number of registered British Ships which are not surveyed and classed either by Lloyd's or by some other registry of like character; 2, how many of these unclassed ships, being yachts, fishing boats, river steamers, &c. do not fall within the category of sea-going merchantmen; 3, how many of the residue of unclassed sea-going merchantmen are already under survey by the Board of Trade as passenger steamers or otherwise?

SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY, in reply, said, that he would have been very glad to give the information required by the hon. Gentleman if it were posHe sible, but he found it was not. would see during the Recess what could be done. He could give the number of British ships which were not surveyed or classed at Lloyd's; but the hon. Gentleman must know that many were registered in Canada and other Colonies, of which he could obtain no information. He might, however, say, generally, that he should direct his attention to the whole subject.

THE TICHBORNE CASE.-QUESTION.

DR. KENEALY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If he would state to the House the grounds on which he advised, or who advised, that Hopwood, a witness for the prosecution in the Tichborne case, and who was convicted of felony last August at the Cheshire Assizes and sentenced to

twelve months' imprisonment with hard labour, has had six months of that imprisonment remitted; and, if he will have any objection to lay upon the Table of the House any Papers or Documents relating to the said remission of sentence, and the grounds thereof?

REGIMENTAL EXCHANGES ACT-THE
WARRANT AND REGULATIONS.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, I was not the practice-and he (Mr. Cross) said, that with great respect he must would not break through it upon this refuse to make any answer to this Ques-occasion-to state in what prison a contion. He should, without the least vict was confined. Jean Luie never reshrinking from responsibility, object to ported himself, so far as he could learn, the Question upon many grounds if it after he got his ticket-of-leave; indeed, was founded upon a true state of facts; he immediately went to Liége, in Belbut he objected to this Question entirely gium, and the police knew nothing about upon the ground that it rested upon the him. assumption that a state of facts was true for which there was not the slightest pretence or foundation. This man never had a remission of punishment; and if the hon. Member wished to have any documents he was prepared to lay upon the Table a certified copy of the record of conviction, which stated that the man was convicted and sentenced to six calendar months' imprisonment; also the warrant of commitment, which stated that he was to be imprisoned and kept to hard labour for six months, and the certificate of the Governor which stated that the prisoner had served for a period of six months.

DR. KENEALY said, he wished to state, in justification of his Question, that every newspaper at the time stated that Hopwood was sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment.

Afterwards-

DR. KENEALY asked the right hon. Gentleman the date when the police authorities at Scotland Yard first communicated to the Treasury that Jean Luie was a ticket-of-leave convict; whether the said Jean Luie is still in this country, and, if confined, in what prison; and, if the said Jean Luie ever reported himself to the police after he got his ticket-of-leave; and if so, when and where?

QUESTION.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the Regulations under the Regimental Exchanges Act have been prepared; and, if so, whether he will lay them upon the Table of the House?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, that the Warrant and Regulations had been prepared and had been approved by him. They awaited the sanction of Her Majesty, after which they would be published in the General Orders, and would receive every possible publicity. If the noble Lord would move for them, there would be no objection to laying them upon the Table.

THE NEW FOREST.-QUESTION. MR. FAWCETT asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether he is aware that several hundred acres of waste land near Stoney Cross, in the manor of Minestead in the New Forest, previously lying open and forming part of the Forest, have recently been enclosed; and, whether the Crown has consented to this enclosure; and, if not, whether any and what means are proposed to be taken to restore to the open Forest the land thus enclosed?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, he thought the time had almost come when Questions of this kind might MR. W. H. SMITH, in reply, said, be stopped, for the privilege of interro- that since the Question had been placed gating Ministers was liable, like every on the Paper he had been made aware other privilege, to be abused. It was of the fact that there had been an ennot a correct statement of fact to say closure within the last year or two to the that the police authorities at Scotland extent of 200 or 300 acres, belonging to Yard had ever communicated to the a private landowner in the neighbourTreasury that Jean Luie was a ticket-of-hood of Stoney Cross. The evidence leave convict. On Friday, November 28, 1873, after he had given his evidence for the defence, and after the evidence contradicting it had been given and the case for the prosecution had closed, two persons came into Court and identified Luie. He was now in a convict prison; but it

taken before the Committee which had reported this Session was to the effect that any assertion of the forestal rights of the Crown over the property of private landowners would be considered an unwarrantable attack upon private property. He was unable to state whether

the Crown thought it right to assert forestal rights over enclosed private property; but the subject would have consideration during the Recess.

CIVIL SERVICE INQUIRY COMMISSION-OUTDOOR OFFICERS OF CUSTOMS. QUESTION. MR. JOSEPH COWEN asked the Secretary to the Treasury, If it is the intention of the Government to answer the various memorials that have been sent to the Treasury from the Outdoor Officers of Customs at the outports, with reference to an increase of salary and the abolition of classification; and, when the Third Report of the Civil Service Inquiry Commission will be ready for distribution?

MR. W. H. SMITH: Sir, the third Report of the Civil Service Inquiry Commission is now ready for distribution, and will be in the hands of Members before the end of the week. During the progress of the inquiry, the consideration of the memorials of the Outdoor Officers of Customs and of the other Civil Servants has been suspended by the Treasury; but the Government intends in the Autumn to deal with the several questions raised in the Reports of the Commission.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT-
SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION AT

GRAVESEND.-QUESTION.

MR. MUNDELLA asked the Vice President of the Council, Whether he received the memorial of a number of ratepayers of Gravesend in March last, calling attention to the deficiency of school accommodation in that borough, and praying for the establishment of a School Board; and, if so, whether he proposes taking any action thereon?

of the place would be voluntarily met with due despatch; and I may add that we had been also informed by the Mayor that a public meeting was held towards the close of last year, when a proposal in favour of a school board was negatived by a decided majority. The actual buildings are, I believe, sufficient; but the question is whether some schools would be made efficient, and whether others would be re-opened or replaced. Considering all these circumstances, and the apparent dislike of the place to a school board, as shown by the vote of the public meeting summoned to consider the matter, we felt bound to allow sufficient time for the real wishes and intentions of Gravesend to be ascertained. Unless we receive information very shortly that our requirements are in course of being actually complied with, as a matter of course we shall order the election of a school board forthwith, to meet the requirements we have made.

POST OFFICE-TELEGRAPHIC COM

MUNICATION WITH THE CHANNEL
ISLANDS.-QUESTION.

MR. BRUCE asked the Postmaster General, Whether there is any immediate prospect of direct telegraphic communication with the Channel Islands being restored; and, whether during the interruption of such communication arrangements might not be made whereby messages to or from the Channel Islands could be sent through France, on payment of the French rate above the usual rate charged for the transmission of such messages?

LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, that telegraphic communication with the Channel Islands would be open in a few days. As to the second Question of the hon. Gentleman, he did not think it would be advisable to adopt his suggestion.

VISCOUNT SANDON: Sir, we have received a memorial from some of the ratepayers of Gravesend asking us to order a school board, but hitherto no THE TICHBORNE CASE.-QUESTION. formal resolution in favour of a board, MR. WHALLEY asked the Secretary as required by the Act, has been sent to to the Treasury, Whether the Return of us, or, in accordance with our practice, the expenditure in the Tichborne case we should at once have ordered an elec-includes the money paid to Charles tion. The case of Gravesend is some- Orton; whether in fact the said Charles what peculiar. We were informed by the Town Council at the beginning of the year that they had been assured that our requirements respecting the schools

Orton was paid any and what sum under the name of allowance to him as a witness subpoenaed to give evidence or otherwise; and, whether in fact, though