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renew,should have some relief. To exempt could be to the tax now before the House ; them altogether from the operations of the it applied to profits of every description, Bill was not what he intended to propose; but exempted the army and navy. He neither would be submit his motion at all wished the House, however, to consider to the House, if he did not feel confident the different situations of our military and that there was not one who heard him ihat naval officers at tbis time. In 1695, the would say it was a case that did not merit pay of a lieut.-colonel was 17s. per diem, attention. In order, however, to convince the very same pay which they received at the House of the particular claims which present. But, if the calculation of sir that description of persons had on their George Shuckburgh was correct, namely, consideration, he would define the situa- that 8s. 9d. in 1700, was equal to 11. in tions in which officers of the army were 1803, how much more were the officers of placed. He would not state the distinct the army and navy entitled to exemption pay or allowance; but a captain wben he at this period? They had formerly dewas sent on foreign service was allowed rived some advantage from what were 221.; a subaltern sl. 158.; out of this money called Stock-purses, but this benefit no they were under the necessity of providing longer existed. On going abroad, they cloihes and camp equipage, the expenses were obliged lo make certain allowances of which were frequently so great that to their families; and many of those who a captain could not take the field under 801. had fought in the Peninsula were afterand a subaltern under 301. This hardship wards sent to America, and bad not yet had, indeed, been represented to Govern received their arrears. He would next ment, and it was then thought proper to advert 10 the Colonial service, which was give the officerstwo months pay in advance. by no means pleasing to the army. So But even with this benefit, what was the great, indeed, was their dislike of it, zbat situation of the army in the Peninsula ? it was recently a usual practice, in exFor six months afterwards they did not changing on Colonial service, 10 make a receive a farthing. Where a considerable difference in price from 5001. to 1000!. body of troops was marched into a foreign for what was only intrinsically worth country, the price of provisions was gene. 1,5001. Nor was this to be wondered at rally double, and they usually gave 100 when we considered the effects of foreign 10 200 dollars for a mule, which they must climates on different regiments. The either provide or leave their baggage 18th regiment of foot was composed of behind. It was not, however, to be sup- 34 officers, and 1000 men; but in the posed, that they could supply themselves space of eight years and a half, it lost with all requisites from their pay alone: 71 officers, and upwards of 2000 men. A they were frequently obliged to draw resident in the Colonies, though only for upon the their friends, and to distress their temporary affairs, was not liable to the families. There was, besides, the loss Property duty; he might stay there for which they suffered from the difference of three years, and then send his property exchange. The exchange against this to this country, which was not subject to country was at this time 25 per cent.; so taxation : but officers of the aroy and that, upon every 1001. for which an officer navy who remained abroad for ten years, drew, he was subject to a loss of 351.; 25l. and were frequently under the necessity for the difference of exchange, and 101. for of selling their commissions on their the Property-tax. Surely, then, if there return, were not entitled to any exemption. was any description of men entitled to the As far as he had been able to ascertain, ibe regard and consideration of that House, it deduction for Property-tax on the pay of was the olhcers of the army and navy; | officers in a regiment of 1000 men was men who held their tenure of life only | 7801.; so that, supposing 100 battalions of from day to day, and with whose deaths, 1000 strong, the whole would amount to as they could not insure their lives for the 68,0001. per annum. It was necessary benefit of their families, all the capital | also to state, that when an officer was which they had expended in their pro ordered abroad to join his regiment, he fession generally expired. The motion was assisted with a sum of money to take which he intended to submit to the House his passage. The usual sum for a captain was extracted from the Records of Parlia. who was appointed to a regiment in the ment in the time of William and Mary. / West Indies, was 281. ; but the price of In the year 1095, a contribution the cabin was 501., and it generally ap. raised upon the country, as similar -as peared, on his first landing there, that the


whole of his expenses amounted to 100l. I considered it necessary, therefore

, to reinstead of 281. Having detailed these vise the state of the full and half-pay, striking facts, he would not occupy the particularly as superannuated officers were attention of the House any longer with now receiving within 401. of their full respect to the army: and he would leave salary: On these accounts, he should supthe subject, as far as it related to the navy, port the motion. to the hon. admiral who intended to second General Grosvenor expressed his hearty his motion. He felt persuaded there was and entire concurrence in what had fallen no gentleman who would not think the from his hon. friend who made the moofficers of the army and navy entitled tion. to the consideration and liberality of the General Harvey having bimself expeHouse: if the smallest doubt existed in rienced many of the disadvantages which any mind, it must arise from the manner the hon. general who proposed the motion in which he had expressed himself, and had detailed, could not withhold his comnot from the merits of the case. There plete acquiescence in the motion. was not one person out of doors, whether The Chancellor of the Erchequer expressed he were a merchar, a stock-broker, a his opinion, that the arguments of his gal. Jand-holder, or any other description, who lant friend applied rather to some general would not be glad to see that a distinction revision of the naval and military service, had been made in this case. The army than to the specific motion which he had and navy had always deserved well of brought forward. With respect to the their country; but ihey were more en clause which had been introduced in the titled to our consideration at this period, time of king William, he willingly adthan they were to that of our ancestors in mitted that the pay was higher then than 1695. He should, therefore, conclude now; but it should also be recollecied, with moving, " That it be an instruction how very different the service of the army to the Committee, to amend the Act, by was in the iwo periods. In the reign of exempting from the operation of the Tax king William their service was only oce on Property, the pay of such military and casional, and no half-pay was established; naval officers, as are actually mustered consequently, it was desirable tbat their on foreign service, and not otherwise." reward should be not only a compensation

Sir Charles Pole rose to second the mo- for actual duty, but, as far as might be tion. He said, that the observations which practicable, a provision for the future. the gallant officer had made with regard The gallant general bad alluded to the to the army applied in a double ralio to case of civil officers in the Colonies, as the nary. In the equipment of a ship, the being exempted from the operation of the necessaries they were obliged to provide Property-tax; but he could assure him that amounted to almost as much as the ex. they enjoyed no such exemption, where penses incurred by any person beginning they derived their salaries from this couna new establishment. He bad thought cry. Those who drew colonial allowances that ihe renewal of the Property-lax was were of course exempı, because Parlianecessary under the present situation of ment did not think it expedient to extend the country, but that certain modifications the operation of the Act to our Colonies. ought to have been adopted. As to the With respect to the relief which officers measure now proposed, he did not think it would derive, in any bardships they might went far enough. In looking at the esti- now sustain, by. exempting them from the mates which had been lately submitted to Property-tax, he thought it would be very the House, it must alarm any man to add inadequate ; and, besides, the House would to the burihens of the people; but he was surely feel the delicacy of extending that quite sure that great savings might be description of relief to a particular class made in several departments of the navy, of individuals. The very principle opon especially with regard to superannuations which the tax was recommended, in some on the civil service. Government had degree, to public favour, was its universal acted with great liberality in augmenting operation, and to exempt the army and the half-pay of naval officers; but it went navy would neither be beneficial to the at this moment to make the full pay and public service, nor conducive, in his aphalf-pay so nearly on a par, that there was prehension, to their bonour. If the proonly a difference of si. in the pay of a position were entertained, in respect 10 lieutenant of the navy. In the pay of a inem, many other classes, the inferior purser there was no difference at all. He clergy for instance, whose profits were


equally contingent and precarious, might duration. Such a result, however desirajustly claim the same exemption. But the ble, might be very disadvantageous to House had determined, and wisely, in his military men, as they would be put to all opinion, that no modification of the tax the necessary expenses of an outfit, with a should take place, distinguishing perma- less chance of remuneration. He held it nent from temporary profits; and even if due to the honour of the House, as well as such an exemption in favour of the army to that of the country at large, to express, and navy were thought necessary on ge- in the most decided manner, the just sense neral grounds, the present occasion was entertained by them of the services of the the very last in which he should recom- army. mend it. The tax was now to be revived, Lord Palmerston wished to offer a very without any alterations or inquiries, which few words upon what had been urged by would only perples the collecting of it. the hon. mover, and the hon. and learned It was to be given to the public again gentleman who spoke last. He appresimply in the form to which the public hended, in the first place, that it was an had been accustomed; and, with that entire misconception to suppose that offi. view, as soon as the House should have cers were less able to provide for themdisposed of the question then before it, it selves and families on foreign service than was his intention to submit a proposition, at home. The fact was, that on foreign which would simplify the operation of stations they were much more advantagethe tas. It was, that the assessments of ously situated, as, in addition to their orlast year should be the basis of the present dinary full pay, they were at no expense

Parties would not be called upon to for quarters, they drew ralions from the make any fresh returns, but merely io pay magazines both for themselves and their the same amount as they paid the pre. servants, and obtained forage for their ceding year, unless where they might horses. It had been observed that long think themselves aggrieved. This pro- arrears were sometimes due, viz. for six or position, he was happy to say, had met twelve months, but this was only an adwith the approbation of all to whom he ditional proof that the incomes of officers had communicated it. At first he thought were much improved abroad, as they had it might diminish the produce of the tax ; | been particularly in the peninsular war. but upon consulting with those who were fare, or it would have been impossible for better acquainted with its details than him them to have given such long credit to self, they were of opinion that it would Government. With respect to the hardhave no such effect. That principle had ship alluded to by an hon. and learned been adopted since the year 1806, in gentleman, when officers purchased their taking the assessments upon landed pro commissions and were killed in battle, or perty, no fresh returns being called for: died on foreign service, he could only say, but in commercial property, which was that though it might be an act of liberalicy necessarily fluctuating, cases might occur to allow their families to dispose of their in which it would be necessary to make commissions, it would be an act of great a reduction. Those, however, were not injustice to the corps. Many cases, how. numerous enough to create any solid ob- ever, had occurred, in which, the families jection to the arrangement. With respect of officers being left in great distress, to the motion of the hon. general, he grants were made to them in addition thought its objects would be better effected to the usual allowances.

He certainly by bringing the subjects under the notice thought, if any distinction was to be made, of Parliament, when the army and navy the officers serving at home were most estimates were before the House, instead entitled to it. of that indirect and collateral mode. Mr. Abercrombie confessed that he thought

Mr. Serjeant Onslow entirely concurred the arguments of the right hon. gentleman in the opinions of the bon. mover, and opposite were unanswerable against the thought them not at all weakened by the proposition of introducing any clause to reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. exempt particular classes from the operaIt was to be remembered that when an tion of the Property-tax. As long as the officer fell in the service of his country, the measure should be deemed necessary, his commission, perhaps his only provision, its operation ought to be uniform, reserywas immediately lost to his family. The ing the power only, if in the course of House bad been flattered with hopes that time it should unfortunately be made a the approaching war would be but of short permanent impost, to consider how far it

might then be expedient to introduce The Chancellor of the Exchequer recommodifications, He agreed with the noble mended to the hon. general to withdraw lord, that if any description of officers were his motion. more peculiarly entitled to the considera General Gascoyne persevered, when the tion of Government than another, it was question was put, and negatived without a those who were placed upon the home division. service; and, the refore,if the House enter Mr. Grenfell rose, and observed, that tained ihe proposition of the gallant ge- according to the provisions of the Act as neral at all, it ought to be reversed in its it was now framed, there was no clause in application. He had briefly stated his it to restrain the Commissioners of the Proopinions, because, if the question were perty-tax from disclosing the information pressed to a division, he should be com- ihey obtained in the discharge of their pelled to vote against the motion. duty. He thought this a defect, which,

Mr. Forbes supported the motion, and, in many instances, might lead to unpleaadverting to the situation of the navy on sant occurrences; in some cases, indeed, foreign stations, especially the East Indies, he knew such occurrences had taken place. expressed a wish that some practicable He should therefore, move, “ That it be mode could be devised for enabling the an instruction to the committee to introsailors to receive their pay through the duce a clause imposing the same restraint medium of the East India Company. At upon the Commissioners for the Affairs of present, the only way they could obtain Taxes as existed with regard to the Comit was, by taking slops of the purser at missioners for General Purposes under the nearly double their value, and turning | Property-tax Act.” them into money by afterwards selling The Chancellor of the Exchequer objected them at one half.

to the motion, because he thought his hon. Mr. Rose said, that an arrangement | friend and the House were hardly aware such as was alluded to by the hon. mem- of all the consequences to wbich the prin. her had been under the consideration of ciple would go. He apprehended that Government, but was found impracticable. improvident disclosures were very rare, as With respect to the necessity of taking he had heard but few complaints. Unless slops from the purser, those slops were a case of real necessity were made out, he contracted for by the Navy-board, at the should certainly be averse to any such lowest possible price, and they were of clause. the best materials.

Mr. Baring said, that if the right hon. Lord Milion adverted to the difficulty gentleman had stated any specific inconwhich seamen encountered in procuring venience likely to result from the motion their pay, after having been engaged in of his hon. friend, he, for one, should be the service for a number of years. Some prepared to oppose it; but, as that had regulation ought to be made on this sub- not been done, he hoped the House would ject.

reflect before they rejected it. Lord Proby thought the situation of offi Mr Huskisson contended, that as the cers, he meant subaltern and not general intended duration of the Bill was only for officers, required relief, and was at present one year, a very strong case of actual indiscreditable to the country, and prejudi- convenience ought to be made out to cial to the service. It was true that the induce the House to take any step which object of a military life was not money, might have the effect of casting a stigma or the accumulation of a large fortune ; on so respectable a body of men as the but it was necessary that there should be Commissioners of Taxes. He thought it what was sufficient to enable officers to would be very difficult to devise any kind live like gentlemen, and this sufficiency of oath which would exactly answer the was not yet accorded. The hon. general purpose of the hon. member. was, however, certainly wrong in sup Mr. Whitbread observed, that no argu. posing that officers abroad were less ad. ments had been advanced against the provantageously circumstanced than those at position of his hon. friend (Mr. Grenfell), home.

which he was confident could not be Geoeral Gascoyne replied, and said he attended with any inconvenience, and had no reluctance, if that would satisfy would certainly produce many beneficial the noble lord (Palmerston), to extend consequences. He could not forbear rehis motion for exemption, and make it marking on the constant recurrence made generał to the whole army,

by gentlemen on the opposite side to the

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assertion, that the Property-tax was tosioner, any satisfactory explanation was continue for only one year. · He felt very given of bis conduct? sure, that it would be proposed from year Mr. Grenfell replied, that he had reto year, and at lengih riveted upon the ceived no explanation, which, in his view people for ever. He observed, that the of it, was satisfactory. Chancellor of the Exchequer took advan. Mr. Wynn maintained, that a single cir. tage of its present temporary nature to cumstance such as that which had just obviate discussion. He thought the clause been mentioned by his bon. friend, ought proposed very unobjectionable, and said, to be sufficient to induce the House to he had often heard of very unjustifiable agree to the motion. disclosures made of the private property Mr. Lyttleton was at a loss to conjecture and circumstances of individuals, which on what ihe opposition to the motion was might be prevented by the restraint of an founded. The expediency of it was paloath. On these grounds, he hoped his pably clear. It would be a most imporhon, friend would press the motion to a tant improvement in the Act. If it were division.

rejected, it would cause a very serious imMr. W. Smith, certain as he was that the pression upon the public mind, as if that tax would be renewed the next year, and House would countenance such a prothe year after, thought that Parliament ceeding. ought not to spare themselves the trouble The motion was then agreed to. of modifying it in the best possible way.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer proHe had always opposed the tax on the ceeded to make the motion which he bad ground of its inquisitorial and oppressive already described. It was to the follownature; but he was by no means per. ing effect" That it be an instruciion to suaded, that by an extensive pruning, it the Committee, that it be empowered to might not be rendered tolerable.

make provision in the said Bil, That the Mr. Grenfell, in reply to the request assessments of the year ending the 5th of made to him by his hon. friend, to relate April, 1815, be the basis of all assessments the anecdote to which be had alluded, to be made by the commissioners for the stated, that a friend of his, travelling in a year ending the 5th of April, 1816; and common stage coach from London to Ox- that no new assessments be made;" ford, was entertained by a fellow passenger which, after a short conversation, was care with a minute account of the diminution ried in the affirmative. of income, and of the other affairs of a Lord Milton, convinced as he was of the gentleman whose residence they passed. numerous deficiencies of the measure, On his arrival at Oxford, his friend in- moved as a general proposition, “that it quired who his fellow passenger was, and be an instruction to the committee, that was informed that he was a commis- they have power to amend the said Act." sioner of the Property-tax. He (Mr. On this motion a division instantly took Grenfell) had subsequently a long corre- place; for the motion, 37; Against it, spondence with him on the subject, and 134:-Majority, 97. had acquainted him that if ever an oppor.

To The House then went into the committee, tunity occurred, he would introduce into in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer the House of Commons some measure to introduced the clause which he had precheck so great an abuse. It was in conse. viously announced, which was received quence that he then submitted the clause, and agreed to, as well as Mr. Grenfell's, and would take the sense of the House relative to the oath of the commissioners. upon it

The report was then received, and ordered The Chancellor of the Exchequer asked, to be taken into forther consideration on whether in the correspondence which the Wednesday next, and the Bill, with the hon. gentleman had had with the commis- amendments, to be printed.


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