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Lord King contended, that the petitions praying for no alteration in the Corn laws, formed no objection to inquiry, it being for the House to legislate, and it being of course its duty, before legislating upon a subject, to obtain the best information respecting it. The information at present before them was altogether insufficient; they had none as to the expense of grow

a fair protecting price for the Irish farmer. They had no satisfactory information upon many other important points; and he should, therefore, vote for the motion of his noble friend.

quiry, why did the House hear of it now for the first time? During the six weeks that passed from the first meeting of parliament, not one syllable had been dropped on the subject, except by a noble lord (Grenville), who at the recess had mentioned it as one of the questions necessary to be discussed. On the first day of their last assembling, a noble lord gave notice that he would not propose the fur-ing wheat in Ireland, or as to what would be ther sitting of the committee; thus giving room for noble lords to declare any intention they might have of following up the topic. But here again, not one syllable was said from the 19th of February to the 13th of March. The noble chairman as- Lord Mountjoy contended, that any signed his reasons why further information delay in the measure would be of the might be wanting. That referred to greatest injury to Ireland, where the France. That information was now, how-farmers would abstain from sowing wheat, ever, fully given. The noble lord proceeded till they knew what would be the protec to state, that were the motion acceded to, tion they were to expect. His lordship the House might go on examining wit-repeated the arguments so often urged nesses till the dog-days, and after all, there respecting the advantage to be derived by would be no end to the inquiry. The House this country from the circulation of her had ample grounds to legislate upon al- manufactures in Ireland. They had been ready, and they must at any rate exercise told, that Ireland was a log round the neck their own judgment in the last resort. of England; but if this was the case, what The noble earl had suggested the possibi- had been the cause of it? He would anlity of the Irish underselling the English swer-the want of capital; and he would farmer, and had stated this as a fit subject add, that the only means of furnishing for farther inquiry: but was the House pre- capital to that country was to encourage pared to make any such distinction? As her agriculture, and to enable her to bring well might the House inquire into the her corn to this country. By this means rates at which farmers in various parts of her prosperity would be insured, and inEngland, in Devonshire, Cornwall, and stead of becoming a burthen upon EngYorkshire, could raise their produce. The land, she would become one of her chief question was, whether we were not rather supports. With these sentiments, he felt to protect the supply from Ireland, than it his duty to vote in favour of the Bill, from other countries which could either and against the motion of the noble earl. give or withhold it, as it pleased their respective governments. No man enter-scious of the vital importance of the subtained a higher respect for the petitioners than he did he wished that the people of this country should always think and speak freely on the great interests of the nation, and should approach both Houses of Parliament with their sentiments. At the same time he had to remark, that very few of the petitions asked for delay; they neither asked for, nor offered to pre-ing the averages of corn, and regulating sent further evidence. They were for no change in the Corn laws. To please them, the Bill now in its progress must at once be stopped. But would this meet the views of the noble mover, or of their lordships generally? He saw great inconvenience in the suspense, anxiety, and irritation which any unnecessary delay would produce, and therefore should oppose the motion.

The Earl of Lauderdale said, that con

ject now before the House, it had received from him the most anxious consideration; and the result was, that he was more firmly fixed than ever in the opinions he had originally maintained. He admitted to his noble friend, that there were some points on which sufficient inquiry had not taken place, namely, on the mode of tak

the assize of bread. These, however, were topics by no means essentially connected with the Bill before the House; and he must say, in justice to the noble earl at the head of the committee last year, that he never saw a chairman labour so hard as he did to get evidence of all sorts. For himself, he only viewed the measure

as a protection to the British farmer, and therefore he did not care

much about the precise importation price that might be fixed. In this view, think ing that the price ought not to be lower than 80s., he would have been prepared to go as far as even 90 or 95s., as being calculated more effectually to secure do mestic supply, and when the proper time arrived he should be prepared to assign his reasons for this opinion. In the mean time he should advert to some parts of the evidence before the committee, on which his noble friend (earl Grey) had commented. It was true that Mr. Mant, one of the persons examined, had given it as his opinion that 72s. would repay the farmer; but this was on the supposition of the removal of the income tax, and of the wages of labour being lowered. The former of these conditions had indeed taken place; but were the petitioners, he would ask, prepared to consent to the latter? Would they not find it better to leave bread somewhat dear, with good wages, than cheap bread and no wages at all? The latter of these alternatives, he was sorry to say, was the situation of many of the agricultural labourers in his part of the country, where bread indeed was cheap, but, from the want of employment, they had no wages. His noble friend had called upon the House to stop legislating on this subject, until the currency of the country had recovered its standard value. This, if listened to, he feared would entail an absolute prohibition on the measure for years to come. It by no means followed, that if 80s. was fixed as the importation price, it would be also the minimum price of corn. This was contradicted by the whole history of our corn laws; and during many years of the last century the average price had been only 35s., while if the importation price was likely to be the minimum price, it should have been as high as 60s. He would repeat, that the distress among the agricultural labourers was extreme; and if agriculture was not protected, they would naturally crowd into the towns, and thus, by competition, lower the price of manufacturing labour. His object was to afford such protection to home supply as would, upon an average of years, secure abundance, for the supply was necessarily regulated by the demand. He was disposed to speak with every respect of the petitioners; but on questions of this sort, he had seldom witnessed enlightened proceedings on the part of the great body of the merchants and manufacturers. They

were too apt to consider the present alone, without looking forward to future years. There was only one way of enlightening the lower orders on a subject of this kind, and that was by making them experience the beneficial effects of the law which the Legislature should enact. It was a frequent argument in the mouths of the manufacturers, that if we imported grain to the amount of a million, we exported manufactures to a similar amount. There never was a more unfounded opinion than this. this. If by the protection of agriculture the whole of this corn was raised by our own farmers, would not this be preferable to the manufacturer in every point of view? It was impossible to enumerate the variety of ways in which the prosperity of the agricultural classes created a demand for manufactures.

The Earl of Darnley expressed his high satisfaction at the speech of his noble friend who had just sat down, by the strong arguments contained in which he had been confirmed in opinions which he had long entertained. At the same time he was anxious that the House should proceed with every possible degree of deliberation, and that they should not move a step with the Bill, while it was possible to say that a single piece of evidence on the subject was wanting. By this course, he was convinced the landowners would be far from losers. AIthough he was satisfied, in his own mind, that the restrictive price of 80s. would not raise the quartern loaf above 1s., yet he thought that, in a measure on which so much agitation pervaded the public mind, further inquiry ought to take place; and, therefore, he should give his vote in favour of the motion.

Lord Grenville, in a luminous and elaborate speech, contended that the only safe line of conduct for the House to adopt was to abstain from all legislative interference on the subject. If, he said, a just light did not even yet pervade the councils of the country upon it, he should deplore it as a calamity. He conjured the House not to take any step without well understanding their ground. The facts before them were sufficient to shew the consequences of proceeding upon any mistaken principle. The committee had felt that the House would not discharge its duty unless it resumed the inquiry before any alteration took place in the laws. He was of the same opinion. The first object of the inquiry ought to be inte

the capability of the country to supply Yet, when all the ports of the world were the full quantity required for its subsist- to be shut against the British consumer, ence. The number of acres might be except Ireland, it then became the House extended to three times, or even thirty to consider that they had a duty to pertimes as many as were now sown with form as British subjects. He objected to corn, if sufficient capital could be em- the very imperfect and inaccurate stateployed in their cultivation. But the ments of the averages on which it must quantity of capital requisite to effect this be utterly unsafe to found a permanent object was a material consideration, as measure, and insisted that the market well as to ascertain at what price the corn price bore no regular proportion to the could be grown. Respecting the neces- standard price. That the Bill was meant sity of fixing the price at 80s., the evi- to have the effect of raising the price of dence, so far from agreeing, had been corn was plain, else why uniformly put completely contradictory; yet the House this question-to what price must coru was about to legislate on a subject which rise to give it protection? That it must was to be permanent, and to fix a price, also have the effect of keeping out of this calculated at a time when money was country the foreign corn which formerly greatly depreciated, while the Chancellor came into it, till it reached 80s. was equally of the Exchequer had declared that there clear. He should ask a question, which he was a prospect of the currency rising to was surprised had not been put in this its former level in the very next year. report, What had been the cause of the This was a most important reason for exceeding high price of grain for many going into the inquiry, and it was the years past? And if that question was anonly way in which the House could dis-swered-the difficulty of getting corn from charge its duty to the country. He was unable to discover what other effect the measure could have than to raise the price of corn. But another question was, what effect it would have on the wages of the labourer? The House should proceed to inquire what would be the effect of an increase of the price of labour? If the price of bread increased, and the price of labour did not increase, what then would be the condition of the labourer? The wisest thing, in his opinion, would be to abstain from legislating at all. He would never assent to any doctrine which separated the manufacturing from the agricultural interests; and if there was any one interest that could be more injured by the measure than another, he would say that this was the body of landholders, on whom it would entail the greatest mischief. It was, therefore, a matter that ought to be looked at and sifted to the very bottom. He would wish to propose an inquiry into the causes which have kept corn at the high prices at which it so long had been; and if it should appear owing to the difficulty of importing corn at any period from abroad, on what prin ciple could it be argued that this high price would not continue when importaLion was prohibited? Importation ought, on the other hand, to be entirely free from Ireland; if not, where was the justice of the Union? Nothing could be more just or important than the knitting together the interests of Great Britain and Ireland. (VOL. XXX.)

abroad-which he was sure it would be, that should certainly deter the House from proceeding farther. With regard to foreign supply, he much doubted whether, under any circumstances, France could now supply this country with any consi derable quantity of corn, so long as that law continued in force which prohibited the exportation of corn from that country when it was at 49s. the quarter. Upon the general question of dependence, the present was not the time for entering; but when that time did arrive, he should be prepared to maintain the opinion, that a more pernicious maxim than the vain imagination that a commercial country could keep itself wholly independent of foreign supply,-in other words, that we should cut ourselves off from commercial intercourse with Europe to a certain ex, tent,-never entered into the policy of any state. There was another subject which had been altogether omitted in every discussion of the present measure, both in another place, and in the opening speech of his noble friend: he alluded to the distilleries. Had they no connexion with the proposed measure? and how would its ope◄ ration affect the revenue, by increasing the price of the raw material? Not a word had been said upon that subject, and yet their lordships would be surprised to hear the amount of revenue which was put to hazard by legislating on it. He implored their lordships from every consideration, in justice to themselves, in justice to their (L)

country, not to precipitate a question af of all, and of the poor above all. What fecting the vital interests of the whole had been the course of the question now nation, whether agricultural, manufactur- before them? It had occupied the attening, or commercial. As yet they had the tion of Parliament for three years; and evidence only on one side, and they had during the last session the subject was reno evidence to prove what would be thenewed; but nothing was done respecting effect of the measure upon the manufac-it, except a partial act of legislation, beturing classes of the community. For cause it was thought necessary that more himself he had no possible motive that inquiry should be instituted, and more could bias him in the judgment he had information obtained. That inquiry had formed. If he bad interests, they were in- been gone into, and the result of it was terwoven with those of the agriculturists the mass of evidence now upon the tables of the country; if he had connexions that of both Houses of Parliament. One thing might influence him, they were to be was most certain, that whatever it might found among the landed proprietors; nay, be thought necessary to do, should be if he looked higher, and had any public done without delay. If they meant to prejudices, he did not blush to say that legislate, they should legislate at once; but they also pointed the same way, for to the their pace ought neither to be quickened landed interest this country owed its pre- nor retarded by the clamour out of doors. sent greatness among the nations of the The injury which the country was sustainworld. Yet, with all those feelings about ing from indecision and procrastination him, he most solemnly pronounced it as was great. Many estates could not be his opinion, that the intended measure sold, many farms could not be let, and would be an impolitic one; and he there- many landlords who were disposed to fore again entreated their lordships to lower their rents, could not do so, till it pause, to inquire, to reflect, if they hoped was known decisively what course Parlia to discharge their duty to themselves, and ment intended to pursue. Neither land to their country. nor labour could stand upon its true footing in the present uncertainty of this mea sure. The next question was, whether the noble earl had laid any sufficient ground for inducing the House to demand further inquiry; and after the most attentive consideration which he had been able to give to the speech of that noble earl, he was decidedly of opinion that no such ground had been shewn. One of the arguments urged by the noble earl, was the contradictory evidence which had been given: but surely he could not suppose that by continuing the inquiry he would be able to get rid of that contradiction in the testimony. Such contradiction must inevitably exist. If a farmer were asked at what expense he could cultivate his farm, his replies must depend upon the country in which it might be situated, the nature of the soil, and whether it happened to be in a manufacturing or agricultural dis trict. Upon the whole, he really did not see how further inquiry could throw new light upon the subject. Upon the question of averages, he should merely say, that those averages having been the existing ones for the last twenty years, it would be more expedient to legislate upon them than to proceed to make any alteration in them. He had been at great pains to examine that subject, and the result of all his investigations was, that he felt fully

The Earl of Liverpool said, that what ever differences might subsist between himself and the noble baron who had just sat down, he would frankly confess that he had never heard a question discussed with more candour and fairness than the present had been, not only by that noble baron, but also by the noble earl who opened the question. The question they had to determine was, whether they had or had not a sufficient body of evidence before them to entertain the Bill that had been brought up that day from the House of Commons; and he should proceed very briefly to state his reasons for thinking that they had enough. Were the measure one which stood upon the narrow ground of affording relief to a particular class of the community, he would not support it; not from any want of feeling towards the sufferings of any separate body of men, nor from any indisposition to alleviate those sufferings, but because, from long expe perience, he had come to the conclusion that you cannot relieve one class of people without injuring some other class more or less. Upon that subject there was a great deal of mistaken legislation in our statute books; but with regard to the present measure, it was so far from being one which looked only to the relief of a particular class, that it embraced the interests

persuaded they were not liable to any fraud or trick, as they were now taken. If they altered the averages at the same time they altered the prices, they would not be able fairly or fully to judge of the effects of the present measure. Another question connected with the Bill was the assize; and undoubtedly as long as the assize continued as at present, the people of this metropolis would eat their bread dearer than those who resided in parts which were beyond the operation of that regulation. His opinion upon the subject was, that under certain modifications it would be better to get rid of the assize altogether, With respect to the petitions which had been presented, he felt most thoroughly disposed to pay every respect to them, as containing the wishes of a great portion of the people of this country; but he was persuaded that accidental circumstances alone had prevented their lordships table from being loaded with petitions from Ireland, in support of the measure; and he mentioned it only to impress upon their attention, that they had to legislate for the population of the whole empire. It was undoubtedly a question of great difficulty, and one which had created great difference of opinion; but he believed, if the united kingdoms were canvassed throughout, more would be found favourable than adverse to, the measure. It was the duty of Parliament to legislate deliberately, and, having formed its opinion to proceed with that measure which it might, in its wisdom, deem most expedient for the benefit of the whole empire. Their lordships divided on earl Grey's motion.

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PROTEST ON THE REJECTION OF EARL GREY'S MOTION.] The following Protest was entered upon the Journals :

"DISSENTIENT,

"Because inquiry has been deemed necessary to afford this House full infor mation respecting the state of the growth, the commerce, and the consumption of grain, and all laws relating thereto, previous to the adoption of any new regulation on these subjects.

"Because, though a committee has been appointed for the purpose of such inquiries, and has produced a voluminous Report, containing much information respecting the matters referred to their consideration, it is acknowledged in that Report that the investigation is not complete, and it is anticipated as the opinion of this House, that it will be proper to resume the inquiry before any alteration takes place in the laws affecting the interests both of the growers and consumers of corn.

"Because, with the obvious deficiency. of information thus acknowledged in the Report of the Committee itself, and with the strong doubts which so many persons entertain as to the propriety of making any change in the existing laws, we cannot think it expedient to proceed to legislate upon a subject, which, of all others, requires the fullest and most patient investigation, and in which the mischief of any error must be so extensive and dangerous.

(Signed,) AUGUSTUS FREDERICK. WILLIAM FREDERICK. STANHOPE.

ESSEX.

KING.

TORRINGTON.

GRENVILLE.

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Fortescue

Darnley
Grey
Breadalbane

VISCOUNTS.

Bulkeley Torrington

BARONS.

Grenville

King Calthorpe

Earl Spencer was obliged to leave the House before the division, on account of indisposition. The duke of Somerset paired off with lord Cassilis,

GREY."

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 13. -

PROCEEDINGS UPON COMPLAINT THAT THE APPROACHES TO THE HOUSE WERE OCCUPIED BY A MILITARY FORCE.] The orders of the day being read, for taking into further consideration the Minutes of the Proceedings upon the matter of the Complaint made upon Monday last, that the Approaches to the House were occupied by a Military Force; and for the attendance of the High Bailiff of Westminster, and Magistrates,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the object of the House in taking these

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