payment of them, together with the Property-tax, if renewed, would be attended with inconvenience. As to the application of the Property-tax to Ireland, whilst the treasuries remained separate each country should provide for its own exigencies in the way best suited to its convenience; but if all the resources of both countries were thrown into one fund (which he thought desirable) for the exigencies of the empire, such a disparity could not exist, as that a man living on one side of St. George's Channel should be richer by one-tenth than if he lived on the other side. Mr. Tierney explained. He had not expressed a doubt whether the return of Buonaparté was calamitous or not; but had merely said, that whether the return of that man to power was or was not a calamity, was not then the question before the House. mind; the majority of the House which had agreed with the Address, was certainly of another opinion. The grant which he proposed was necessary, in order to enable the nation to be properly prepared for war, or defensive peace. Many persons had thought that it would have been better, even with the peace establishment which he had proposed at an earlier period of the session, that the Property-tax should be continued; he had not himself thought it necessary. Another state of affairs had now arrived, and he was not ashamed to say that all his plans were now changed. There was a large arrear to provide for, and independently of any danger of war, he should think it would be expedient to continue the tax for one year. Sums had been voted as large as the tax which they were about to vote would produce. There had been voted 12 millions to make good the army extraor dinaries of the last year, and two millions to pay off navy debts, which would be as great as the produce of the tax which they were called on to vote. The present time required great firmness, perseverance, and vigour. Before we had wound up the expenditure of one war, we were unex. pectedly called on to proceed in another, or to prevent it by showing ourselves fully prepared for it. The present case was beyond ordinary rules; he could not therefore be accused of inconsistency in proposing the renewal, in time of peace, of the tax which he had said should be reserved as a resource in case of war. The necessity for it would be more striking if we continued at peace; because an armed peace would entail certain expense for a The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, in long period, to enable us to receive, or to explanation, that as it would be only pro strike a blow, while, in case of war, the posed for a year, he thought it the best expense for a year at least might be pro-way to take the tax purely and simply as vided for by loans. As to the petitions it stood before its expiration. which had been alluded to, the object of them, he thought, was that the people might not be saddled with the Propertytax as a peace tax, and he, concurring with the petitioners, had brought forward a different system. It had been said in a taunting manner, that he had abandoned the whole of the taxes proposed by him. Now of those taxes the custom and excise duties had received the sanction of the House, except that on wine, which for political reasons had been postponed; and he was about to propose a new schedule on stamp duties, which would be ready in a few days. The assessed duties he had postponed, and should give up, as the Mr. Barclay thought that Buonaparté had only been replaced on the throne by a soldiery eager for bloodshed and rapine, and who had placed him there because they expected nothing but peace from the Bourbous. This state of things required the most vigorous preparations, whether for war or peace; and seeing no other means for supporting such preparations, he should give his hearty support to the measure. He was glad to understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to propose some modifications of the tax; and he should be happy to contribute towards such an object, as he was convinced that the tax had become so very obnoxious chiefly on account of the mode of its collection. Mr. J. P. Grant expressed his opinion that it was not necessary now to go into the question of adopting this tax. It was a tax most insulting to the sense and feelings of the country, and unless the greatest emergency could be made out for its revival, the people had no right to submit to it. All minds, however, were agreed as to the necessity of adopting a state of defensive preparation; but though he had given his vote for this purpose, on the occasion of the army extraordinaries, he did not think that a case had been made out which required the revival of this obnoxious tax. The question was, whether it was to remain as long as Buonaparté should continue on the throne of France? If this were the case, the time of its cessation would be very equivocal. We had been told that a great peace establishment was necessary, even at the time that the Bourbons were on the throne, to provide against any unforeseen breach of any part of the Treaty; but were we to be told, because Buonaparté had regained the throne of France, that the difference between the peace establishment now and in the time of the Bourbons was so great as to require the difference between that establishment as it now stood, and the amount of the Property-tax? If this were the case, ministers must have a very high opinion of the situation of the country, to suppose it could bear such an expenditure. Unless it was made to appear that war was absolutely necessary, or that it must be looked for at no distant period, he could see no reason for the resumption of the tax. But for his own part he could not believe that war was necessary. It was of very little importance whether the people of France were quiescent or not; Buonaparte had re-seated himself on the throne; and if we were to go to war for the purpose of dethroning him, this was a purpose so totally hopeless, that unless the gentlemen opposite would convince him that such was their intention, he must dissent from the re-enactment of a tax which was not justified by any prospect now before the House or the country. Mr. H. Martin said, the Property-tax had been found so universally oppressive, that there was not a person to be found out of that House who did not object to its revival; and the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was very little calculated to change their opinion. The right hon. gentleman had not dealt fairly by the House or the public, if when he asked for the votes of the army extraordinaries, he had it in contemplation to meet them with the Property-tax. If a strict and regular economy had been introduced into every branch of the public expenditure, this shocking scourge might have been avoided. He should not content himself with voting against the tax as it was now proposed; but in all its future stages he should deem it his duty to oppose it, and throw every possible impediment in its way. Mr. Alderman C. Smith said, he considered the Property-tax, under certain modifications, the best that could be devised to provide for the exigencies of the country: and that while it would be much more productive, it would be less vexatious than the proposed addition to the assessed taxes. But under any other plan of taxation than that under discussion, it appeared to him impossible to make men contribute according to their means, to the wants of the state. He himself knew a fund-holder, whose stock was worth 300,000l. while his expense scarcely Mr. Calcraft observed, that the return amounted to 100l. a year. How, then, of Buonaparté to France undoubtedly ren- was such a person, and numerous others dered it necessary to have the peace under similar circumstances, to be reached establishment of this country higher than by any tax upon consumption, or by any when we were looking to an establishment other than the Property-tax? He could of peace for a series of years. Even in venture to say that his view of the subject that happy time, if it had occurred, he was had now become so general out of doors, of opinion that a modified Property-tax that nine persons out of ten were in favour would have been better to meet the of the Property-tax, especially in the exigencies of the period than the taxes city, where a considerable change of sen. proposed by the Chancellor of the Exche-timent had taken place since a petition for quer. But yet, if it was now to be revived, the repeal of this tax was presented to he would endeavour to get many parts of that House. it modified, as he had ever thought it in some points to be the most unjust, most cruel, and inquisitorial measure that ever was imposed on the greater portion of the people. He would cordially agree as to the necessity of putting the country into a state of the most effective defence; but every man must know that the sums that were necessary could not be produced except by the Property-tax. On voting, however, for the motion, he was not bound to support the measure as it now stood. (VOL. XXX.) Mr. Churles Grant, jon. thought it was evident that a great change had taken place in the public opinion respecting this tax. He had heard a great deal of protesting that night on the subject, and he would also enter his protest, which would be against the injustice of making a motion for referring the Property-tax to a committee of ways and means into the medium of a personal attack upon the noble lord. Was it decent to anticipate the day of his trial, as it was called, and (2 Y) go on to his condemnation? They might at least have delayed their invectives till the day of trial. He would appeal to every man whether an emergency did not exist, which required an unusual expenditure, and that as far as possible this should be met by the supplies of the year? In spite of all that had been said against the tax, he would assert that it had been the most productive and the least objectionable of any that had ever been devised. Mr. Marryat contended, that the tax would fall with unusual severity on the commercial members of the country. He strongly deprecated the conduct of the assessors, who had nothing else to do than to pry into every man's affairs to find where they could make surcharges. Hoping, however, that some modifications would be adopted, he should support the motion; but he also hoped that the public would not in future be left without some mode of appeal. He trusted that ministers would use every endeavour to preserve peace that was consistent with the honour and safety of the country, other wise they would take upon themselves a most awful responsibility. But while the question remained undecided, he would agree that the country ought to be put in the most complete state of defence; and on this ground he should vote for the motion. Mr. W. Smith said, he fully agreed with that great majority of his constituents, who had instructed him to vote against this Property-tax, in whatever shape its renewal might be proposed. Under what ever modifications that were likely to be imposed, the Property-tax would be highly objectionable. Yet he was firmly of opinion, that such alterations might be adopted as would render it the most just and profitable of any that ever was suggested. A mode ought to be devised of levying it free from those inquisitions under which the public had so long laboured. But he had never heard that there existed in the minds of the gentlemen who had proposed the tax, the smallest idea of adopting such modifications; because they said, that they would militate against its productiveness. The present mode of collecting it, however, was not only inquisitorial but unconstitutional. All classes of property ought not to be equally pressed upon, as was now This, which was called a property tax, was in fact, no property tax, because it fell with equal weight upon a the case. property which was worth only three years purchase as upon one which was worth thirty years. The name, but not the nature of the tax had been changed since its origin; and until it was modified it could not possibly become either just or satisfactory. Mr. Alderman Atkins said, that he should not oppose the renewal of this tax, if adequate measures were taken to provide against the vexation so justly complained of in the mode of collection. Mr. Harvey thought, that if it was necessary to bring forward this tax again, the House, in its wisdom, should so modify it, as to render it quite different from what it was at present. By due alterations he had no doubt of its becoming the most agreeable as well as beneficial measure of taxation that had ever been proposed. It ought not to be tolerated that people with large estates that were to descend to their heirs, should pay no more than those whose income was derived from their talents and industry. The profits of trade and annuities ought not to be taxed in the manner they had been. Mr. Western took the opportunity then offered of giving his most decided opposition to the Property-tax in any shape. He would at all times refuse his assent to a measure founded on such unjust principles. It was a tax that ought never to be resorted to again. If we took onetenth from the productiveness of the commercial, the manufacturing, and the agricultural interests, we took one-tenth from the general productiveness of the country itself. He should, therefore, oppose the motion. Mr. Dickenson declared his conviction, that the condition of property in this country had undergone such a change, that the people had not now the same power to pay the Property-tax as they possessed some time since, and this clearly appeared from the evidence adduced before the Corn Committee. How, indeed, could the people be supposed so capable of paying taxes now that prices had fallen, as when those prices were high and the country generally prosperous? It must have been from this consideration that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had abandoned the proposition for laying additional taxes on windows and on wine, because, in fact, there was- no surplus property to pay such taxes. Still the hon. member expressed his intention to vote for the motion; but he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would introduced a great change in the public mind duce some new distinction into his pro- upon this subject; the value of the Proposed measure for settling the criteria of perty-tax was now felt as it ought by the property. Rent was not, in fact, under country, and this must naturally be the existing circumstances, to be fairly deemed case when the good effects of that tax a criterion of property to regulate the were taken into consideration. For it levy of this tax. For he knew a gentle- must be remembered how that tax origiman who had 6,000 acres of land, fromnally operated upon the price of Stockwhich he had not received a shilling of rent for the last two years, in consequence of the distress of the farmers, and therefore that gentleman was obliged to subsist upon his property in the funds. He had no doubt that several similar cases were to be found; but the fact was, that property in general was in such a state that no one could calculate upon the value of it from one month to another. Mr. Rose agreed, that in voting for the late Address to the Prince Regent, the House was not pledged to this or to any specific measure of finance; but this appeared to him, as he had uniformly said, the best tax that could be devised-better by far than any tax upon consumption; for the public always paid more to the latter, and the Treasury received less; while all the produce of the former came into the Treasury. As to the capacity of the people to pay the tax, he declared his surprise at the statement of the hon. gentleman who spoke last upon the subject of property; and the House must participate in that surprise, when it was recollected, that all the surveyors examined before the Corn Committee unanimously stated, that the value of property had doubled within the last twenty years, sixteen years of which the Property-tax had been enacted. But the obligations conferred upon the country by this tax were most important: and he was persuaded, that had the nature of this tax been explained to the people at their meetings some time ago, they would have come to a very different resolution than to petition for its repeal, especially if it had been impressed upon their minds, that the repeal of that tax must be followed by the imposition of other taxes perhaps more grievous, while certainly not by any means so productive; for instance, the additional assessed taxes would be much more vexatious to nine out of ten than the Property-tax, while many who paid from 500l. to. 1,000l. a year to the latter, were, to his own knowledge, already contriving to escape from the former. He lamented that this explanation had not been offered in due time; but reflexion had notoriously pro the 3 per cents. which were in 1793 so low as 457, being soon raised to 65: and if the funds had been allowed to fallwhich without this tax they must have done-what would have been the fate of every description of property in the country? Besides, what an accumulation of public debt did the produce of the Property-tax guard against! Mr. Brand thought any discussion of the merits of the Property-tax as premature at present as the proposition itself. This proposition he considered as premature because no necessity was made out for the re-enactment of such an inquisitorial measure. Such necessity, then, not appearing, and in the absence of every information, there was nothing to satisfy the House that the present exigency of affairs might not be temporary and therefore he could not at once vote for the imposition of a tax upon the country to meet such an exigency; he should rather have the necessities of the occasion provided for by a Vote of Credit. At present it was problematical whether we should engage in war or remain at peace, and until that problem was solved he could not accede to this tax; which, however, he was ready to acknowledge, was the best system of taxation (under certain modifications) that could be devised for a state of war, if war should be unavoidable. But until matters should be more matured than they were at present-until ministers should be able to lay some information before the House, to show that necessity called for such an extraordinary supply; and that we must engage in war for the maintenance of our honour, or for the attainment of a secure peace, he could not consistently vote for this motion; and therefore he should propose an amendment, viz. "That this debate be adjourned till this day fortnight, the 3rd of May next." Mr. T. Foley seconded this proposition, and strongly contended, that without any information to show the necessity of the case, the House should not consent to impose a tax of 13 or 14 millions a year upon this already overburthened country. The hon, member forcibly argued against war, principally upon two grounds; first, because Napoleon Buonaparté was obviously the favourite sovereign of the French people, and we had no right to interfere with their selection; and secondly, because the people of this country were not in a state to pay this enormous tax, as was evident from the known condition of our manufacturers and agriculturists. Mr. Tierney wished it to be understood, that in voting for the amendment, he should not hold himself precluded from proposing farther delay, if within a fornight the House should not be in possession of adequate information upon this important subject. Mr. Whitbread observed, that although the value of property had advanced within twenty years, as stated by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Rose), that value had notoriously fallen of late years, and that fall had been assigned as a main argument for the Corn Bill. Therefore the condition of property had been truly described by the hon. member for Somersetshire. It had been stated, that war might not take place; but if it even should not, he had no doubt that this tax once imposed, would be saddled upon the country for ever-[No, no! from the Ministerial side]. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had said, that he should find it difficult, if not impossible, to propose a less exceptionable tax; but this was telling people, that if they desired the removal of a blister, they should have a caustic; and if the right hon. gentleman could so succeed in reconciling the public to the Property-tax, he would evince a degree of cunning from which he might flatter himself with being placed by posterity upon the same shelf with the noble lord near him. The hon. member contended that there was no necessity for war; that, on the contrary, we might remain at peace, and should soon, at least in two or three years, see that the country could preserve peace without an expensive armament to defend it; for he ridiculed the disgraceful alarm which appeared to be excited in ministers and their allies by the intellect of one man. The Incometax, he said, would produce 14 millions at the utmost; and in the first instance, according to the Treaty of Chaumont, we were to pay five millions to the Allies for one year's subsidy; and it was even rumoured that we were to give nine millions to the coalesced Powers, to stimulate their nerves to that degree of energy which should impel them to go to war. It was clear that the whole depended on this country; and he firmly believed, that if ministers could stimulate the Continent to war against France they would do it. He denied that the Property-tax could be modified so as to be rendered palat. able, and condemned the severity with which it had hitherto been enforced. Lord Castlereagh, rose and replied to Mr. Whitbread in a tone of considerable animation. He observed that the hon. mem. ber had found it more convenient to discuss the question on an assumption of his own, than upon any rational foundation. If, instead of opposing the Speaker's leaving the Chair, he had permitted him to leave it, he would have found that his right hon. friend, instead of intending to propose the renewal of the Property-tax in perpetuity, whether in the alternative of war or peace, would only have proposed it for one year. If we were to make preparations of defence, he trusted that there was no gentleman in the House who would not feel that it was necessary to show to Europe, that Parliament was ready to arm the Executive Government with all requisite power. If they felt that we could live on such terms with the person at the head of the French Government as should not place us within the reach of the strong arm which he possessed, then it might be said that our preparations were superfluous; but if they were of a contrary opinion, then they would use their own discretion in enabling the Executive to provide proper means of security. Alluding to certain pointed sarcasms of the hon. gentleman, which he had thrown out in the course of the evening, the noble lord observed, that if he was only to be taunted by the hon. member respecting information, he trusted the House would feel that he should best consult their and his own dignity by remaining silent, and not suffering himself to be provoked. In spite of all the taunts and prophecies of the hon. gentleman, ministers had carried the country triumphantly through a war, of which the hon. member bad professed his despair of ever being brought to a successful issue, and had even feared lest the liberties of this country might be laid at the feet of the great man' who ruled the destinies of the Continent. It was a proud thing to say, while the people of England were making such vast sacrifices, that the result of the |