Pacific Mail Steamship Co. (larger trans-Pacific, small Central America, some

laid up:

Aztec.

Barracouta..

China.

City of Panama..

City of Para..

City of Sidney.

Costa Rica.

Korea...
Manchuria.

Mongolia..

Newport..
Pennsylvania.
Peru.

San Jose.

2,080

1,538

Siberia.

Senator BRISTOw. Could you furnish us a statement of the number of ships of 1,000 tons, that tonnage engaged in the ocean-to-ocean trade of the United States, England, France, Germany, Holland, Norway and Sweden, Spain and Italy? Could you prepare that data for the use of the committee?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. It is physically possible.. I have not the clerks to do it within some time. It is a physical possibility. It is just a matter of extracting out of books that have a list of thirty thousand and odd ships those complying with your description.

The CHAIRMAN. You will be able to get that for the committee? Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I do not want to promise that with the clerks I have got. I do not want to make a bargain, but if you will send two or three men the books are there and the information can be extracted.

Senator BRISTOW. Under what department is it?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Navigation.

Senator BRISTOW. Can not the Department of Commerce provide us with this information so necessary from our point of view?

The CHAIRMAN. It would be a most extraordinary attitude for any department or subordinate to indicate a reluctance to furnish. such information.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. There is no reluctance. It is a matter of physical possibility.

The CHAIRMAN. The department ought to procure the clerks. The committee wants that information, and I suppose it will be forthcoming.

Senator SIMMONS. Mr. Chamberlain, I want to ask you this: Against this large number of ships engaged in foreign trade, owned and controlled by citizens of foreign countries, I understand you to say that America only has 16 engaged in that same trade?

The CHAIRMAN. The witness stated 15. I adduced the number 16. Senator SIMMONS. Fifteen, then. Now, I wish you would give the committee your reasons, the reasons why that condition of things exists, and what you think is the remedy for that condition of things, if there is any remedy.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is the largest kind of a question, Senator. I would want to talk an hour on that.

Senator SIMMONS. It is an important question.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I do not want to talk an hour on that, and you gentlemen do not want to listen to me--I understand that perfectly well, because that is a matter of theory. That is a part of the matter that I have been working on more or less for upward of 20 years. However, I will start, if you want me to, but I know I shall be talking to empty seats.

The CHAIRMAN. I should be sorry to see Senator Simmons disappointed. I think you may reply.

Senator SIMMONS. I think you might answer the question without any lengthy discussion. I will ask you if it is not the result of the fact that it costs more to construct vessels in this country and costs more to operate vessels in this country than in these other countries that you mentioned?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Undoubtedly that is it in a nutshell.

Senator SIMMONS. Can you equalize that condition in any way except by subsidy?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I do not know of any way.

Senator SIMMONS. What does your report say about that?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I think it said that, time and again.

Senator SIMMONS. Did you propose to equalize that by exempting these American ships from tolls through the canal?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No; I did not.

Senator SIMMONS. If it was equalized in that way it would be by the way of subsidy, would it not?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I do not think I ever intimated exemption. I do not recall any sentence that I have printed which ever took the position that the tolls should not be paid in respect of every ship that went through the canal, but as to who should pay the toll I did take the position that