The CHAIRMAN. How frequently are they used at the Buffalo office?

Mr. JACKSON. I can not tell you so much about the Buffalo office, because I have not worked in that territory, but if you will take the Chicago office, I was there for about seven and a half years and know that the lookout there was used every day and every night. The CHAIRMAN. How long would the inspector remain there? Mr. JACKSON. I have stayed in the lookout 72 hours without coming out.

The CHAIRMAN. Referring to the Buffalo office, if a man is once in the lookout he can not be observed by the people working below? Mr. JACKSON. Not after he is once in. I would like to explain that a little more fully: For instance, you prepare a test and put it in front of a man; if he handles the test properly and does not steal the first one you put in front of him, you will want to test him again. Now, you can not come out and recover the old test and prepare a new envelope and put a new test in front of him without coming out, and every time you come out of the lookout in order to prepare the new test, you expose yourself to the observation of the people in the workroom.

The CHAIRMAN. The person making this inspection is not connected with the local force?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. He might be a man domiciled at that place. I believe there is a local inspector domiciled there, but the lookout would be used just as much by the inspectors from other divisions as by the local man.

The CHAIRMAN. In the case of the Buffalo office, what do you propose to do there?

Mr. WETMORE. They propose to build a gallery that will afford the facilities required there. The inspector, in his letter, said:

A plan whereby the gallery along the ceiling of the workroom floor would extend east and run under room 217 was considered. If this could be done, a trapdoor in the floor of that room could be cut and a ladder run down to the floor of this gallery, which would connect with the present galleries running entirely around the building. Of course, it is understood that this room is now assigned, and before favorable consideration of this plan could be had necessary reassignments would have to be made.

That is what they are arranging to do. If a gallery 6 feet 6 inches deep is built, it would leave a height under the same to the floor of the workroom of 12 feet 6 inches, which is ample. The scheme suggested here has been approved by the Post Office Committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Could not the workmen below hear the inspector when he was passing from one place to another?

Mr. WETMORE. No, sir: we take care of that. This is soundproof. Mr. MAGEE. How long has the existing condition at Buffalo obtained?

Mr. WETMORE. There has been no change that I know of since the building was erected a good many years ago. Sometimes they find it. necessary to change the furniture in the workroom, which affects the serviceability of the lookout.

Mr. MAGEE. I mean how long has that condition obtained with reference to the lookout system?

Mr. WETMORE. Do you mean going in and out without being observed?

Mr. MAGEE. How long has the condition that exists there now as to lookout system existed?

Mr. WETMORE. Ever since the building was constructed.

Mr. MAGEE. That is, for 30 or 40 years?

Mr. WETMORE. Not so long as that.

Mr. MAGEE. But for a good many years.

Mr. WETMORE. That building was constructed along about 1896. Mr. MAGEE. The same condition exists with regard to the other cities mentioned here-Camden, Charleston, and Cleveland?

Mr. WETMORE. No, sir; I do not think the situation is alike in each case.

Mr. MAGEE. There is not anything about the matter that is particularly pressing, is there?

Mr. WETMORE. The Post Office Department will have to answer as to that. The request is made here in a letter from the First Assistant Postmaster General, and I have here a report of the post-office inspector.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that report show anything about the efficiency of the force or the lack of efficiency in the force because of the improper lookout system?

Mr. WETMORE. No, sir: it does not go into that. It goes into the question of the inaccessibility of the lookout gallery without exposing the inspector to the observation of other people in the building.

Mr. MAGEE. Conceding the desirability of these improvements, you do not know of anything connected with the matter that requires particular attention at this time?

Mr. WETMORE. As I say, that is a matter for the Post Office Department to determine. We are submitting this estimate at their request. I know that the building as originally constructed was on plans approved by the Post Office Department, but now they have some changed methods, perhaps.

Mr. MAGEE. I want to deal fairly with all these matters, but my position is-and I want to make it known now-that if anything estimated for is not necessary at this time, even conceding its desirability, I am going to vote against it. So far as I am concerned, I would like to have a statement from those who are making the applications for appropriations along the line of the present necessity for them.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a lump-sum appropriation out of which work of this kind can be done if it is considered more necessary than other work provided for.

Mr. WETMORE. No, sir; we have never constructed post-office lookouts out of that appropriation. We have always had special appropriations for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you not made some alterations and changes in lookouts out of that appropriation?

Mr. WETMORE. No, sir; that appropriation is not for construction work, but for repairs.

The CHAIRMAN. I assume that the force of clerks working in the post office is changed every seven or eight hours, and, as I understand you, if a man went in there before one of those shifts came on, he would not be observed by the new shift.

Mr. WETMORE, No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He would only be observed while going into the lookout. Now, if that is the case, why not put in a temporary partition or screen, without putting in this extension.

Mr. WETMORE. The conditions do not permit that. The post-office inspector states what the situation is there. The acting custodian

says:

The only objection offered to the use of the present basement entrance to the lookout is. that it is under observation of two or three employees engaged in baling paper, If such is the case, this objection will not be overcome by locating an entrance in room No. 217, which would be under the observation of dozens of men passing through the second-floor corridors from their rest rooms.

This is in another part of the building. There is a regular grapevine telegraph system in these buildings. The postmaster says that persons in the custodian force will see the inspector and will know what is going on and will pass the word along. In order to bę effective they must go in without anybody knowing anything about it. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we had a room like this, where there was ample space below the ceiling, and you had a floor or gallery so arranged that after a man got into the gallery he could not be observed. It seems to me that for a few hundred dollars you could put in a screen so that the man could not be observed while going into the gallery. It seems to me that the situation would not require the construction of a gallery.

Mr. WETMORE. This is not for the construction of a gallery alone, but for connecting the present lookout through that room.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you personally looked over the plans, or had some one else to do so, to see whether or not a temporary partition could be put in, even if constructed of nothing more than ceiling, that would be sufficient to screen a person, from observation while going into the lookout?

Mr. WETMORE. I do not know how he would get into the basement without being observed by other people.

The CHAIRMAN. That would involve the putting in of a partition or screen or anything that would prevent his being observed. I do not see how a partition just to screen him while going up there would cost anything like this amount.

CAMDEN (N. J.) POST OFFICE.

FOR EXTENSION OF LOOKOUT GALLERY.

You are asking $3,000 for extension of lookout gallery at Camden, N. J. What is the situation there?

Mr. WETMORE. The First Assistant Postmaster General, under date of the 30th of December, 1918, requested that a new entrance to the lookouts be provided, and that the louvres be screened so that the inspectors using them can not be observed from the workroom floor. Mr. Koons, the First Assistant Postmaster General, states that the present lookout is useless as, owing to the necessary arrangement of workroom furniture, the angle of vision from lookout does not cover clerks' and carriers' cases; also, that on account of small working space and need for natural light, the position of furniture can not be changed. Also, the entrance to lookout in basement is under observation from numbers of employees. That is

similar to the Buffalo situation in that respect. This item is for building an extension so that the whole of the workroom can be under proper observation, and the estimated cost in this case is $3,000. Mr. Jackson has visited that building, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. How important does the Post Office Department consider this improvement?

Mr. JACKSON. That is a pretty bad lookout at Camden, and it is awfully hard to get into that place.

Mr. WETMORE. The statement is that when they are in it they can not get a good view of the workroom at all. I judge that is one of the cases where increased business has made it necessary to have a rearrangement of the furniture, one that is different from the arrangement when the lookout was first built. I think this letter fairly bears out that assumption.

Mr. MAGEE. Which is more important with reference to this lookout-an effort to see that the work of a post-office employee is efficient or an effort to prevent him from taking money or other property?

Mr. JACKSON. That would be pretty hard to answer.

Mr. MAGEE. Take Camden. Have you had any thefts there recently?

Mr. JACKSON. I have never worked in Camden, but from what I understand from the inspectors in the Philadelphia division they have had a number of thefts in Camden.

Mr. MAGEE. How many in the last year?

Mr. JACKSON. That would be something I could not answer.
Mr. MAGEE. You do not know about that?

Mr. JACKSON. No; I do not.

Mr. MAGEE. Have there been discharges of employees by reason of inefficiency in the last year?

Mr. JACKSON. I could not answer that either.

Mr. MAGEE. They would be important elements, would they not? Mr. JACKSON. Yes; but the inspectors from the Philadelphia division would have handled those cases and they would know more about it.

Mr. MAGEE. Lookouts have been continued for a great many years. Take the Buffalo lookout; it has been there ever since 1886, 34 years, and just at this particular time they raise the question of the pressing necessity of making these extensions.

Mr. JACKSON. I might say this, that I have never seen a time when the losses seem to be greater, chargeable to the class of employees that we have been getting into the service within the past three or four years.

Mr. MAGEE. You think the service has been poorer?

Mr. JACKSON. The class of men we have been getting has been

poorer.

Mr. MAGEE. Is that due to the war, do you think?

Mr. JACKSON, I imagine it is.

The CHAIRMAN. How many clerks have you in the office force at Camden?

Mr. JACKSON. I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. You have no knowledge as to the size of the force? Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I have not. I have simply been there on depredation work; that is all.

CHARLESTON (S. C.) POST OFFICE, COURTHOUSE, ETC.

FOR EXTENSION OF LOOKOUT SYSTEM.

The CHAIRMAN. At the Charleston, S. C., post office, you are asking for the extension of the lookout system, to cost $5,000. What is the situation at Charleston?

Mr. WETMORE. The department had a letter from the First Assistant Postmaster General, dated September 18, 1919, forwarding a copy of the inspector's report, in which it is stated that the present lookouts are obselete and practically worthless, as they do not command a view of large portions of the working space; that the desks of clerks and carriers can not be seen at all. The matter had been previously brought to the attention of the office in a letter, dated June 9, 1919, from superintendent of repairs, Mr. Devereux. The inspector suggested that a new lookout be constructed running diagonally across the ceiling from which it can be suspended, and entered from a chute opening on the third floor. The estimated cost of this new lookout is $3,500. This is the same estimate that we submitted in House Document No. 689.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the other $1,500 for?

Mr. WETMORE. We have a new estimate, based on the increased cost of labor and material.

The CHAIRMAN. When was the old estimate of $3,500 made?
Mr. WETMORE. The inspector says:

The investigation disclosed that the present system of lookouts is wholly inadequate and, in fact, practically without value. At present two lookouts are in the office, one located at the east end of the building and the other at the west end. The lookout at the east end is located over the vault in the room of the assistant postmaster. Entrance to this lookout is had from the toilet located between the offices of the postmaster and assistant postmaster This lookout has three windows, two on the west side and one on the north, but little of the workroom floor can be seen from either. The lookout in the west end of the building is located over the vault in the money-order room, and a fair view of the registry and money-order rooms is possible. However, it is not possible to observe the work of the city carriers and clerks in the distribution section from either lookout. The mailing cases, located near the drops, can be seen fairly well from the lookout at the end where the postmaster's office is located. A great objection to the present lookouts lies in the fact that a person must pass through the office of the postmaster before they can gain entrance to the lookout located at the east end of the building; and in order to gain entrance to the one at the west end, one must first enter the basement from the street or driveway, thus being exposed to the view of passers or to drivers of the screen wagons, who park their vehicles at the end of the driveway only a few feet away. Moreover, in entering the office of the postmaster, especially at right, you must pass through the lobby, and clerks boxing mail can and do see every person visiting the postmaster's office.

The CHAIRMAN. That does not give the dates of the submission of the two estimates.

Mr. WETMORE. I do not know what the date was, but apparently November 1, 1919. The estimate was $3,500, but it is now $5,000. The CHAIRMAN. When were these lookouts constructed?

Mr. WETMORE. At the same time the building was erected.

The CHAIRMAN. How long ago?

Mr. WETMORE. 1896.

Mr. MAGEE. Are there any Government detectives around these buildings?