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several burthens upon the Civil List for political purposes, and for the establishment at Windsor, which much reduced that apparent augmentation. The attention of the House had been more especially drawn to the three last quarters, from April 1814, to January 1815, on which the right hon. gentleman had argued, that there was an increase of 140,000l. in the whole (after deducting 180,000l. and another sum of smaller amount, from the gross charge of the Civil List, for the charges attendant on the visit of the Sovereigns of Europe last summer), which remained to be accounted for. In the first place, it was but fair to observe, that these calculations were made upon the most unfavourable portion of the year, since the exceeding would not have appeared so great if the accounts up to the conclusion of the April quarter could have been laid upon the table. This surcharge was to be accounted for in several ways, and partly by various extraordinary and unavoidable charges for new furniture for the reception of the Royal Visitors, for expenses of investing them with the Order of the Garter, for furniture for Cumberland and Cranbourne Lodges, and for an excess on the bills of the Öffice of Works, which made together a total of 55,000l. Besides these sums, was to be taken into account the increased expenditure in the several departments of the household, occasioned by the presence of our Illustrious Visitors. In the department of the Lord Chamberlain the expense had been 142,000.; that of the Lord Steward 42,000l. which, it was to be observed, however, fell short of the estimate, which was 56,000l. The excess of expense of the department of the Master of the Horse was 30,600l. including presents of horses, which had been made by the Prince Regent. The remaining surplus expenditure in this department was occa sioned by the establishment of a stud for the Princess Charlotte of Wales. How-which the motion required for the comever large, therefore, the expenditure mittee appeared to him to be necessary, seemed at first sight, it was already known, or, like former committees, it would only and had for the most part been recognised give them good advice, and encourage by Parliament, estimates having previ- them to indulge pleasing hopes of the ously to the expenditure been laid before future, which would never be realised. them; and so far from the expenditure The Chancellor of the Exchequer could proving that any inquiry was necessary, it not deny that the Civil List expenditure had fallen short of the sum at which the had continued progressively to increase, estimates were laid.-The only remaining notwithstanding the frequent appointment branch of the Civil List expenditure was of committees; and things would go on in that of the occasional payments, the the same way as heretofore, from year to greatest part of which consisted in diplo year, unless a measure like that recom

Mr. Ward thought the speech of his right hon. friend who made the motion, remained wholly unanswered. The powers

matic expenses, which would be better explained, than he should be able to do, by the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department. He perfectly concurred in what had been said by the right hon. gen tleman as to the occasional payments; and three years ago he had submitted a plan on that subject to the House for its consideration, which, if adopted, would relieve the Civil List expenditure from the obloquy under which it now laboured. That plan was to provide for the occasional payments by a distinct vote, instead of throwing a burthen on a fund already appropriated. When these occasional payments amounted to large sums, being all in ready money, they subverted the system of ordinary money payments, and threw them into arrear, to the great inconvenience of the departments, and with a loss to public economy. If these occasional payments were provided for by a distinct grant, the different classes of the Civil List expenditure might be prevented from falling into arrear, being relieved from charges which formed no part of the expenditure of the King's household, or the state of the monarchy. It was certainly proper, that for the purpose of inquiring into the propriety of some alteration of the plan of the Civil List expenditure, as well as to inquire into the reason of the excess in the last year's expense, a committee should be appointed. But it would not be necessary to this end, that the committee should be armed with extraordinary powers; and as the appointment of a committee, without such powers, would answer all the beneficial purposes to be expected from it, he should move, as an amendment, "That such part of the motion as em powered the committee to send for persons, papers, and records, be omitted,"

mended by his right hon. friend were was held in other countries at this time, adopted. He took occasion to notice the and at other times in this country. The difference between the estimates and the time was in the recollection of every one, real expense of some of the public works. when there was a levee twice a week, The alterations made at Cumberland- and a drawing-room once a week, during lodge were estimated at 12,0002. The the sitting of Parliament. Now there charge for them was 40,000l. He hoped was a levee once a fortnight, and a drawthe works in the Parks would not furnishing-room once in the year now there ground for a similar comparison. He were substituted for these levees, private complained of the strange jumble which parties at Carlton-house, which were, in appeared in the accounts of the Admiralty some respects, made subservient to polidroits, which made it no easy task imme- tical purposes. Though some persons diately to discover in what mode the who were not adherents of the ministry money had been expended. It appeared were sometimes admitted to these parties, that there had been paid to the American they were few in comparison of those commissioners the sum of 148,000l. In who, from their rank and birth, might 1812, when the American declaration of claim admission to the royal presence. war was received, it was not at first an- Though no one entertained more sincere swered by a similar declaration. An respect for the Royal Family-at least for embargo was laid on American ships, and their situations-than he did,-these parorders were issued to seize and detain all ties at Carlton-house were not the places vessels belonging to that nation. This in which he should wish to see his friends, course had been taken, in the expectation therefore it was not from any private inthat the proposition sent out to the Ame- terest that he adverted to the subject. rican Government would produce the im- But it was impossible to disguise how mediate restoration of peace. When those great the effect was which was produced hopes were disappointed, he considered by admission to the presence of the Sovethe vessels thus detained to be fair and reign-how bitter the disappointments lawful prizes, and as such the property of from exclusion. This system of exthe captors; but of the 148,000l. at which cluding the nobility and gentry from they were valued, the captors received the presence of the Prince Regent, was from the commissioners but 78,000l. The carried on even at a time when on all enormous charges of the proctors he took accounts it would have been thought occasion to notice. He wished not to that it would have been departed from, throw obloquy on any particular class of namely, during the presence of the illusmen, but their charges he understood fre- trious Visitors in the last summer. The quently ran away with the whole of the monarch was never to be considered in a prize, and even made the captors losers private capacity every moment of his by their success. This was a grievance life should be devoted to public good, and which was severely felt in the navy, and the system, therefore, of continually giv one which called for an immediate re-ing private parties, from which so large medy. a portion of those who would be intitled to appear at levees were excluded, was to be deprecated. As to the particular item of expense in the department of the Master of the Horse, it appeared very great. Some years ago an extraordinary expenditure had been made in this depart

Mr. Bennet said, that the difference between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his right hon. friend who made the motion was, that his right hon. friend wished for a committee, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished merely for an apology, and by tacking an amendment, to create a stud at Hampton court, ment to the motion, wanted in reality to from which the late Mr. Perceval augured sink it. Without following the Chancellor a great reduction of expense. What had of the Exchequer into his details, he been the fate of that stud he knew not, should make some remarks on a subject on but the expense of the department had which he had not touched. Although never been reduced. The hon. gentlemore than 900,000l. had been expended man then remarked on the excess above yearly on the royal establishments, the the estimate of the expense which atcountry did not know for what it was that tended the Jubilee in the parks. It had they paid it; for though they heard that been triumphantly stated last sessions, that salaries were paid to certain lords and 15,000l. would cover the whole of the ladies, there was not any such court as expense. Nothing could be more false

than this estimate; for it now turned out that the expense was 40,000l. But what he most objected to, was the pernicious effects with which it was attended. He trusted he should never live to see such another scene of vice and dissipation arise to the infinite annoyance of all the middle classes of society in the metropolis. The whole proceeding had inflicted a serious calamity on the morals of the people. He also remarked on the great expense which had attended the mission of sir Henry Wellesley in Spain, and concluded by expressing his opinion that ample ground had been given for the appointment of the committee with full powers, for the purpose of investigating the subject thoroughly.

Mr. Rose admitted, that a case had been made out which called for inquiry. It was fit that a strict investigation of the excess which appeared in the estimates should take place; but for this purpose, he denied that it was necessary to give the committee powers which the committees formerly appointed had not possessed. Those which it had been customary to give were in his opinion quite sufficient. In sixteen years, under very extraordinary circumstances, the excess had averaged 81,000l. per annum. This, all things considered, he thought would not appear to be a very great excess. With respect to the enormous charges made by the proctors in prize cases, which had been spoken of in the course of the debate, he could say, from his own personal knowledge, the statement made to the House was founded on very loose information. For a considerable time all ground of complaint on this subject had been done away, though reports had been circulated which were of a nature to cause much ill blood in the navy, and which had unfortunately had that effect.

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Sir W. Congreve acknowledged that the works in the parks had exceeded the estimates; but he would be bound to prove they did not exceed them by more than 3,000l. One cause of the excess was, that though the erections were sold, they did not bring one-third of their original cost, as was usual with such materials, but only about one-fifth. A deduction was also to be made for the bridge over the canal, in the park, which it was thought proper to retain. The sale of the tickets had not amounted to more than a sixth part of what had been expected. For this, however, ministers could not be answerable.


As to the principle of the fête, it had only been following former precedents, and surely no occasion of the conclusion of a peace had offered of a superior kind. With regard to the immorality complained of, he was afraid there might have been a little excess of that sort, where such multitudes of people were drawn together.

Lord Milton said, that the committee, without power to call for persons, papers, and records, would be a dead letter. There was no necessity for a committee, if it was only to make calculations on the papers already on their table. The duty of a committee would be not merely to see whether there were vouchers for every expenditure, but whether it was conducted consistently with economy. He wished to know whether the erections in Windsor-park were within the department of Woods and Forests, or that of the Civil List?

Mr. Huskisson said, that by recent regulations, the surveyor of woods had the superintendence of buildings in the parks. He thought it quite unnecessary that the committee should have the power of sending for persons, papers, and records. The chairman might be instructed to move the House, that additional information might be granted; or any individual member might move for information, if he thought fit. To grant such a power to such a committee, was unprecedented. He could not see how his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer could be accused of a desire to defeat the motion, when he had himself given notice that he should have moved for a committee; neither could he see, that if the committee had the fullest powers, it could inquire into the reason why the Prince Regent did not hold three levees a week. The doctrine that a Sovereign was to be never in private was novel. Were they to be as Indian idols, always open to the gaze of the worshippers? The hon. member deprecated the invidious comments which had been made upon several items in the papers on the table, with regard to the expenditure of the Royal Family, and adverting to the animadversions upon the allowance granted to his right hon. friend, Mr. Canning, at Lisbon, the hon. gentleman entered into some explanation. Be fore his right hon. friend's appointment to the office of ambassador to the Court of Portugal, the chargé d'affaires, who had not to maintain the dignity of that station

which was assigned to his right hon. friend, was allowed 5,000l. a year. The difference, then, between that sum and the allowance to his right hon. friend was not at all unreasonable, under all the circumstances of the case. For what were those circumstances? An ambassador from Portugal was at the Court of London, and it was thought proper to appoint an ambassador from this country, with suitable splendour, to represent our Court at that of Lisbon, and to receive the Prince Regent on his return to his European dominions, That that return was expected at the time of his right hon. friend's appointment, there could be no doubt. The Prince Regent of Portugal had, indeed, communicated to our Government his intention to return to Portugal, and had expressed a desire to be conveyed from the Brazils in a British squadron, naming even the officer whom he wished to command that squadron. In fact that prince was expected to sail from the Brazils as soon as the squadron required should reach that country. But as it was at present understood that his Royal Highness had informed our Government that he did not now intend to return to Europe, there could be no doubt that his right hon. friend would resign his appointment and return home, unless his Majesty's ministers should still think it necessary that an ambassador should be maintained at Lisbon. That was not a question on which his right hon. friend could decide. Every one knew that he would have gone to Portugal as a private individual, had he not been sent out in a public capacity; and he did not expect he would continue there as ambassador, in the absence of the Court to which he was accredited. If an ambassador was necessary at all, he could not be sent out on a smaller allowance; for fifty years the salary of a foreign minister had been 5,2001.; and to secure that sum from dimi. nution by the loss of exchange, 8,000l. was no more than was necessary. The right hon. gentleman defended the public rejoicings of last year. The greater part of the additional charge on the Civil List, had arisen from the extraordinary expenses of last year; and after all the privations and sufferings of a twenty-years war, it seemed quite reasonable that the people should have an opportunity of expressing their exultation at the glorious termination of the war. He contended that it would be most indecorous were the committee to extend its investigations into

the private expenditure of the Royal Family.

Mr. H. Martin thought the question for the House to consider on this occasion was, whether they would appoint a committee with powers sufficient to obtain full and satisfactory information, as his right hon. friend proposed, or with no powers whatever but to read the papers laid before it, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had recommended. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer pleaded precedent in support of his recommendation, What, however, did this precedent show? Why, that notwithstanding the several committees heretofore appointed upon the subject of the Civil List, the debts had still gone on increasing; so that the evil complained of had been in no degree cured. On the contrary, the mischief had been aggravated; and this surely was a strong reason for discarding the prece dent relied upon on the other side, while it furnished a volume of argument for adopting the proposition of his right hon. friend for the appointment of a committee, with competent powers to inquire and obtain adequate information.

Mr. Long said, he resisted the motion of the right hon. gentleman opposite, on the same ground that he opposed a similar motion two years ago, namely, because he thought such a proposition contrary to parliamentary practice, and the inquisition in view indelicate and disrespectful towards the Crown. As to the debt of the Civil List, any gentleman who considered in his own private expenditure the change which had taken place in the value of money and all the articles of consumption, from the year 1797 to 1811, when the last investigation of this debt took place, could not be surprised at its amount. He denied that any part of this debt, or any mischief attributed to it, could be conceived to proceed from the committees alluded to; and as to the committee proposed by his right hon. friend, if that committee in the progress of its inquiry was found to require additional powers, it would be open to the chairman to move the House upon the subject. With respect to the expense of our embassies, the right hon. gentleman asserted that our diplomatic agents were not so well paid as those of any other court in Europe.

Mr. Calcraft supported the original proposition. The Civil List he considered as a compact between the Crown, the Par

liament, and the People, and it appeared to him essential to the popularity of the Crown to maintain that compact unbroken. No one acquainted with his character could suspect him of a disposition to act niggardly towards the Crown, or to abate any part of its necessary splendour and dignity. But yet he could not help observing, that ever since Mr. Burke's Bill, which was intended to regulate the expenditure of the Civil List, its debt had gone on increasing. This was an evil which called loudly for correction, and the five committees heretofore appointed having operated no good upon the subject, he felt it necessary to vote for the appointment of a committee, with adequate powers efficiently to investigate and completely to remove the evil. As to the idea of the last speaker, that it would be open to the chairman of the proposed committee to move for additional powers, it would be idle to calculate, that if the chairman of a committee proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were likely to make any such motion, that House would be apt to accede to it after reject-ments; that over which he had the honour ing the proposition of his right hon. friend.

establishment of the Civil List, and fixed the revenue of the Crown, was not for its advantage. Yet the spirit of that bargain had never been violated, nor was it proposed to depart from it, although it became necessary, in consequence of an advance in the general scale of expen⚫ diture, to make good the additional expense, to which the Crown was subjected. The only way in which the expenditure of the Civil List could be rendered fixed, was to withdraw from it all those fluctuating charges, the amount of which must vary according to circumstances; and be had no hesitation in saying that to adopt that valuable principle would be highly desirable. What might be called the floating expenditure would then be made a matter of annual estimate, and as such would not only be subject to the vigilance of Parliament, but the Crown would be relieved from that unjust odium which, he contended, was wholly unknown in the practice of Parliament.-With respect to the excess in the Civil List account, that excess had chiefly arisen in two depart



Lord Castlereagh thought that no case of necessity had been made out for deviating from the established practice of Parliament upon a subject of this nature, and therefore he felt himself bound to oppose the original motion. He could not recognise the policy or propriety of violating the delicacy and deference due to the Crown, by subjecting its expenditure to such an odious inquisition as this motion appeared likely to produce. was due, in justice to the Crown, to consider the nature of the Civil List, which, be it remembered, was originally established as a substitute for a large hereditary revenue surrendered by the Crown to the public. But that revenue was no toriously derived from sources, the produce of which would have progressively increased with the progressive prosperity of the country, while the amount of the Civil List being settled, was affected by all the changes of circumstances and the depreciation of money, the influence of which, every individual must feel in his own private expenditure. Had the Crown retained its hereditary estate, it was not at all likely to have been under the necessity of applying to Parliament for the payment of its debts. But the fact was, that the bargain which gave rise to the

to preside, and the Lord Chamberlain's. The excess of the latter had grown out of transactions which could not be considered as comprising any part of the permanent expenditure of the Royal Household-he alluded to the visit of the Allied Sovereigns last year; and upon that subject he might be permitted to state, that as far as he had possessed opportunities of comparing the expense of courts abroad, and the style in which the ministers of those courts supported their establishments, he certainly could trace none of that profuse splendour at home, which the right hon. gentleman seemed to consider as the cause of the increased expenditure of the Crown. With regard, also, to the expenses incurred by the reception of the august Personages who visited this country last year, he believed, if he could have brought with him the document from Vienna, containing the expenditure of the Emperor of Austria, in receiving and entertaining the Allied Sovereigns, it would appear, that no excessive splendour was exhibited here, and that the Emperor of Austria's civil list was a little more hardly pressed upon than that of the Prince Regent. So far as his own department was concerned, he should have no difficulty in giving to the Committee the fullest explanation upon every item, in any manner which did not involve a

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