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departure from the practice of Parlia- | under other circumstances he would proment; and that being the disposition bably not have accepted. With regard which he felt, he should not detain the to the employment of general officers House with going into minute details. upon foreign missions, the noble lord conHe wished, however, before he sat down, tended that no augmented expenditure to explain some circumstances that had was incurred by coupling the military been alluded to, and which, in justice to with the diplomatic character, while great the individuals connected with them, service to the country, especially during should not be left under that weight of the campaign of last year, was derived prejudice which might attach to them, from it. An hon. gentleman had alluded from the manner in which they had been to the expenses at the Court of Madrid. mentioned. Fifteen thousand pounds ap- They were, indeed, of a magnitude which peared to the name of the earl of Aber- might be expected to draw the attention deen, for the expenses of his mission; of Parliament to them: and he had felt it but it should be remembered that that his duty to enter into a full explanation sum was subject to a very severe tax from upon that subject, with the person who the rate of exchange, which reduced it now resided at Madrid, who had expressed to not more than 10 or 11,000l. He his anxiety to concur in any measure had no allowance from the Civil List; for limiting that branch of expenditure to he did not go out as an ambassador, but a fixed and reduced amount, desirous as upon a public mission, the expenses of he (sir Henry Wellesley) was to incur which were to be defrayed, but no direct any sacrifices rather than remain subject emolument was derived by him from it. to the sort of obloquy which it had been That 11,000l. included also the expenses unjustly attempted to cast upon him. It of all the persons attached to his mission. would be seen, however, when the comThe embassy to Lisbon had been again mittee inspected the accounts, that what alluded to, and in the same tone which, might strictly be called the personal exhe understood, had been applied to it in penditure of our ambassador at Madrid, his absence. The right hon. gentleman did not exceed 14,000l. a year. With had said, that the expenditure of this respect to the whole expenditure of the country was augmented by that embassy; Foreign Department, it was to be remem but if he would only refer to the accounts bered there was not a court in Europe in his (lord Castlereagh's) office, he would now at which we had not a minister, and find that the expense of an inferior agent the extraordinaries under that head were at Lisbon had been nearly double. With necessarily larger in the first creating respect to the propriety of an ambassador, those appointments, because then the exhe thought there could be no doubt. The penses of the outfit were incurred. His Court of Lisbon had had an ambassador earnest wish however, was, that the House here for the last three years; and it was I would take the extraordinaries of the due to the friendship which this country Foreign Department out of the Civil List felt towards Portugal, and after the cala-altogether, and let them be the subject of mities which had attended the Prince Regent, that he should be met on his return, and be congratulated by a British ambassador. When that arrangement was made, it was in the full expectation, and indeed persuasion, that the Prince Regent's return to Europe would immediately take placean event which, for political reasons, even this country must be naturally anxious to accomplish with the least possible delay. The appointment was one which certainly could have been no object for the right hon. gentleman to accept, if domestic circumstances (the sickness of his son) had

not rendered it necessary for him to go to

that country; and that being the case, it was natural for Governinent to wish to take the advantage of the circumstance, and propose to him an embassy, which

annual estimate. Upon the whole, he did not see why they should change the course of proceeding hitherto adopted, by giving to the committee unusual powers; powers, in fact, to institute a species of inquiry, whose only object would be to render expense odious, and not to control it; he therefore felt it his duty to adhere to the ancient parliamentary practice.

Mr. Whitbread said, that the arguments of the noble lord were as much against the appointment of any committee, as against a committee with such powers as had been recommended by his right hon. friend in his motion; and he must really

find that if his right hon. friend had

failed to convince the House that night of the necessity of such a committee, there was no reason to hope it would ever

be granted at any future period. Without investing the committee with those powers which the motion contemplated, its labours would be as nugatory as those five successive ones had proved, from whose reports no benefits had resulted. The House were told that the committee might, if they thought proper, instruct their Chairman to move the House for any papers they might think necessary. What a childish hope was this to hold out to the House of Commons! When the Chancellor of the Exchequer had appointed his committee, they were to have powers to ask, if they thought proper, for the production of those papers. Who could doubt that there would be no want of delicate guardians of the Crown in this committee? The accounts that the committee were to receive of the expenditure of the Crown must be purely spontaneous on the part of the Crown. The noble lord bad throughout the course of his speech talked of the delicacy which was due to the Crown, as if the Crown was the only party. He had mentioned that the Crown had formerly an hereditary revenue; but as for Parliament, the noble lord appeared to conceive its functions quite inconvenient, unless when they were employed in passing complimentary addresses to the Prince Regent for the wisdom of his ministers, or voting the sums of money necessary for the wars which the noble lord contemplated. As to this hereditary revenue, the noble lord appeared to go back with pleasure to the glorious times (as he conceived them) which preceded the Revolution. In those times, however, the sovereigns out of this hereditary revenue defrayed a great part of the expenses of the state. The noble lord might also go back to the glorious times of Charles the 2nd, when not only the expenditure of the hereditary revenue was not inquired into, but when the pen sion that that sovereign received from France was not inquired into also. But since the period of the Revolution, when was it that Parliament did not inquire into the expenditure of the Crown? The noble lord had only talked about sovereigns about the Prince Regent, and the Emperor of Austria. He had appeared to have entirely forgotten who it was that supplied the expenditure of the Civil List, both to the Prince Regent and to the Emperor of Austria. It was the people who paid those civil lists, and this was a circumstance which the noble lord appeared to (VOL. XXX.)

have entirely forgotten. As to the proposition that the expense was always found to exceed the estimate, he must observe, that much to the honour of the Lord Steward, the expense in his department` did not exceed the estimate. The expenses in the Park, which were estimated at 15,000l. did in fact amount to 40,0001. A more shameful waste of the public money, or a greater disgrace to this coun try, he had seldom witnessed, than the scene of drunkenness and riot which prevailed in the parks for a week, and which had cost the nation 40,000l. A right hon. gentleman, the surveyor of the woods and forests (Mr. Huskisson), who had been formerly a great economist, and who had represented that the nation must be ruined, if prodigal expenditure was not checked, had now completely changed his sentiments, and had that night become the advocate of every species of expense. He now ridiculed the idea of controlling the expenditure of the Crown, and asked who would be a King, or a Prince Regent, if they could not be allowed to spend 5,000l. on a green-house, or 1,000l. on horses, without an investigation before the House of Commons? In mentioning this 1,000l. about horses, an anecdote occurred to him, which he hoped was not true. It was said that an illustrious foreigner, prince Platoff, had made a present to the Prince Regent of a horse that had carried him through the late successful campaigns. It might naturally be supposed that such a horse, as a remembrance of the donor, would have been kept with the most extraordinary care, that it would have a separate groom to attend it, that it would have been pampered, and suffered to pass the remainder of its life in a sort of riotous felicity. He had heard, however, and was very sorry to hear it, that this animal was now employed in drawing a dung-cart at Hampton-court, (a laugh.) When the passion for giving 1,000l. for horses was spoken so lightly of, he could not avoid thinking of what he had heard had been the fate of prince Platoff's horse. The expenses at Windsor also certainly deserved a most minute examination. It appeared that here there was a most profuse and lavish expenditure. Unless the committee were authorized to call for persons and papers, was not to be expected that documents from evidence would come spontaneously before them, to show where the waste of the public money lay. Large sums of money (2 T)

it

were voted for purposes to which they were never applied. A large sum was annually given for travelling expenses to our gracious Queen, whose journies were merely from Windsor to London and from London to Windsor, except, indeed, one to Brighton, and that was paid for separately. A large sum was also given for horses, which she never used. As to the embassy to Lisbon, he would call upon the gentlemen on the other side, to answer bond fide, and upon their honours, whe ther, if those domestic circumstances had not made it desirable for Mr. Canning to go to Lisbon, they would have appointed any ambassador to that court? If they could say they would have done so, then the question was disposed of: but if they could not say, upon their honours, that, independent of Mr. Canning's convenience, they thought an ambassador necessary at Lisbon, and intended to send one, then it was evident that this transaction had been properly described, as a job for the benefit of Mr. Canning at the expense of the country. He was not surprised at the manner that the noble lord floundered over this part of the case, as this appointment had taken place in his absence. When the noble lord professed such excessive delicacy for the Crown, he would wish that he had also some compassion for the people of this country. If proper consideration was shown to them, and it could be proved that the expenditure was justifiable, the gratitude and attachment of the people would amply repay this consideration.

Mr. Bathurst defended the appointment of Mr. Canning, and contended, that if the revenues of the Crown had been suffered to remain as in the time of Charles 2, they would be more considerable than they were at present. He was clearly of opinion, that no farther advantage could accrue from a vivâ voce examination of witnesses than would be derived from the production of the documents promised by the noble lord. He would not agree to open the door to so general a mode of inquiry as that proposed by the hon. gentleman.

Mr. Tierney, in reply, ridiculed all the arguments which had been urged by the opponents of his motion, to show that the House could have a good inquiry without sending for the persons and papers from whom alone the requisite information could be obtained.

Mr. William Smith supported the motion.

He recommended economy in every branch of the public expenditure, and thought that the expenses should be in proportion to the means of the country.

In

Sir Thomas Acland said, he should vote for the motion, on the ground that a pretty general feeling existed throughout the country, that on this particular subject there was a greater waste and extravagance than necessary, and that in this particular quarter there was a habit of expense, not conducive to the true splendour of the Crown, nor calculated to advance the real honour of the country. such a case, when such a feeling existed on the part of the people, that House ought not to be found wanting in their duty to those whom they were bound to protect. If ever there was a time in which the discharge of this duty was more loudly called for than at another, it was the present; first, as an expression of gratitude for the manner in which the House had been seconded by the people during twenty years of arduous contest; and secondly, because it was considered not impossible but that the Government of the country might in a short time be compelled again to draw very deeply indeed upon her exertions. If this last necessity should occur, he trusted that every man would cheerfully come forward to lend his aid, and no one should be found more ready to support the interests and the honour of the country than himself; but this would be done with more alacrity, if the people saw that on an inquiry like that now proposed, the most efficient way was taken of arriving at the truth. He did not blame any one. He would treat every body with all due delicacy. He would, instead of curtailing the splendour of the Crown, do every thing to add to that splendour; and he was persuaded that the most substantial mode of effecting this, would be to institute a bonâ fide investigation.

The House then divided on the Amendment-Yeas, 127; Noes, 94: Majority, 33. The amended motion was then agreed to, and a committee appointed. List of the Minority.

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Martin, H.

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Monck, sir C.

Bankes, H.

Moore, P.

Barham, F.

Milton, lord

Butterworth, J.

Barclay, C.

Calcraft, J.

Calvert, C.

Calvert, N.

Cavendish, lord G.

Cavendish, C.
Cavendish, H.

Douglas, hon. F.S. N.
Dundas, Charles
Dickenson, W.
Duncannon, lord
Dundas, hon. L.
Elliot, rt. hon. W.
Ellison, Cuthbert
Fremantle, W. H.
Fergusson, sir R.
Fane, John

Mackintosh, sir J.
Methuen, P. C.
Montgomery, sir H.
North, D.

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Newman, R.
Neville, hon. R.
Osborne, lord F.
Proby, lord
Paulett, hon. W.
Philips, G.
Ponsonby, rt. hon. G.
Piggott, sir A.
Pierse, H.
Prittie, hon. F.
Protheroe, E.
Ramsden, J.
Romilly, sir S.
Ridley, sir M.
Robinson, Aber.
Smith, W.

Smith, R.

Stanley, lord
Shelley, sir T.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Tavistock, lord
Whitbread, S.
Western, C. C.
Wharton, J.
Walpole, G.
Wynn, sir W.

Grant, J. P.

Grenfell, P.

Guise, sir W.

Hammersley, H.

Hornby, E.

Horner, F.

Howorth, H.

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Warre, J.

Leader, W.

Wright, A.

Latouche, R.

TELLERS.

Lubbock, J. W.

Littleton, E. J.

Martin, J.

Wynn, C.

Gordon, R.
Hamilton, lord A.

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foreign court, struck him as utterly inconsistent with the practice of the British Government, and decidedly hostile to the principles of our constitution.

The Earl of Liverpool declined to enter at present into the subject alluded to by the noble lord, but observed that any minister was warranted in acting upon the instructions of his Sovereign, and that it was notoriously not unusual to give directions, and grant powers to a foreign minister to conduct and conclude the most

important transaction; such a practice, no doubt, might, to a certain extent, be deemed a transfer of the powers of the Executive Government.

Earl Grey admitted the propriety and practice stated by the noble Secretary upon any contingency or expected event, but declared that he had never heard, and he denied the propriety of investing any minister with a discretionary power to exercise the authority of the Executive Government upon any event that might arise, however unexpected, and such authority appeared to him to have been exercised by the minister alluded to. The motion was agreed to.

CONGRESS AT VIENNA.] Marquis Wel lesley thought that it would be much more consistent with the dignity of that House, as well as with the magnitude and importance of the subject, that ministers, instead of waiting for questions from that side of the House, should come forward and present, for the satisfaction of their lordships, a general exposition of all the circumstances connected with the great transaction at Vienna, in which they had been so long engaged, together with the papers necessary to illustrate that transaction. He wished to know whether ministers intended to lay such an exposition before the House, and when it was likely to be brought forward, or whether they proposed to wait until the negociations in which they were engaged had terminated, or a treaty had been concluded? Such an exposition he thought highly desirable, in order that at such a crisis as the present, that House, the country, and the world might know what system ministers and the Allies had evinced a disposition to support-that be

Earl Grey observed, that from some of the documents on the table, a very extraordinary power appeared to have been granted, or at least exercised, by an individual minister (alluding, as we under-fore the British Parliament had concluded stood, to lord Castlereagh), and at this power he felt the more surprised, because the transfer of the powers of the Execu tive Government to any minister, at a

the dreadful pledge of war, it should be seen whether they were supporting the same principles for which the British nation had been struggling for twenty-five

years, or for any other system-whether for a system of general justice and permanent peace, or for a system of gross injustice likely to lead to perpetual hostility; whether the arrangements in the contemplation of the Allies were calculated to put an end to the calamities which had so long afflicted mankind, or to produce still greater evils. On these grounds the noble lord thought that the exposition alluded to was due to the character and interest of our own Government, and to the common cause of the Allies.

noble earl himself had; however, recognized the principle, that some points were so prominent that they ought to be brought forward without delay. He had produced papers relative to one or two of the branches before the completion of the whole; and unquestionably some particulars were of such vast importance, and so loudly demanded a prompt attention, that they must be considered an exception to the general rule. Admitting, then, the advantage of having the whole arrangements in their view before they atThe Earl of Liverpool declared, that it tempted to form a decisive opinion on any was the anxious wish of his Majesty's one branch, he should be much disposed ministers to lay before Parliament, as soon to wait till the conclusion, before he enas circumstances permitted, a full exposi- tered upon the discussion of any particular tion of their conduct in the great transac-part, unless, indeed, the period should be tion alluded to by the noble marquis, whatever might be the result of that transaction. Two branches of that transaction, the negociations respecting which were completed, had already been brought under the consideration of that House, and he assured their lordships that as soon as the other arrangements were definitively settled they would be submitted to the judgment of the Legislature. But until those arrangements were concluded, and pending a negociation, attended, especially at present, with embarrassing circumstances, he trusted their lordships must feel that he could not be authorized in entering into the question stated by the noble marquis-that he would not be warranted in presenting the House with par tial views, or premature information. But when the case should be complete, he could declare for himself and his colleagues, that it would afford them the greatest satisfaction to lay the fullest information before the House, and he had no doubt of being able in due time to satisfy their lordships that his Majesty's Government had not supported any system inconsistent with justice, or with those principles which had been recognised by the greatest statesmen this country had ever known.

Marquis Wellesley said, that the noble earl had admitted the necessity of having a complete view of the whole arrangement before any one branch of it could be with advantage discussed, and before an accurate and just opinion could be formed respecting it: but then the whole was not completed, and he supposed he must wait for that period for which the noble earl professed to be so anxious, before he could expect any thing like a general view of the arrangements. The

so long protracted as to make it impossible to wait for that of which it would be impossible to say when it might terminate: but at the same time exceptions must be made as to certain prominent points, and one of these points which demanded instant attention was the arrangements with respect to Saxony. It was due to the justice, the dignity, the honour of the country, that this should be brought under their lordships consideration. As the matter appeared at present, we had taken the judgment-seat, and pronounced sen. tence upon the head of a venerable legitimate Sovereign of an ancient family, of whom, whatever might have been his errors, it might be said that few had adopted a more wise and beneficent system of government than he had done with regard to his own subjects. A cabinet minister acting for the Government had been sent out, and it appeared from certain information which had been received, that we had really taken the judgment-seat, and avowedly proceeded against a legitimate Sovereign on penal principles! But though we had thus taken the judgmentseat, even supposing it were to administer justice, it could not be said that it was to administer justice in mercy. This was a transaction which, for the honour of the nation, must not be allowed to rest any longer in silence. The attention of their lordships and the country must be called to it, and that without a moment's unne cessary delay. It was for these reasons that he now wished to communicate his intention of submitting a proposition to their lordships on that head, at no distant period, when he should perhaps move for some further information connected with that particular point.

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