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that the improvements which to a wonder- , fensive to him, be of course must be ful extent had been made in all the private satisfied. He said, there would be no concerns of the country, were so slow in time lost in taking tbe improvements finding their way into the public establish which the hon. gentleman bad mentioned ments, and especially the dock-yards. He into consideration. The first lord of the particularly noticed the making of ropes, Admiralty had made personal visits to the the improvement in which, he said, was dock-yards for the sake of consulting the known and practised every where outside different officers on the propriety of alte. of the dock-yards, but was not at all rations in the present system. attended to within. It was a disgrace to Mr. Whitbread hoped they should see this nation that improvements which were the fruits of those visits, though he was so generally known should not be adopted aware the greatest obstacle existed to the in the dock-yards, where they were per introduction of improvements, on account haps more than in any other place neces- of the hostile disposition towards novelties sary. The Admiralty were in full force on the part of the old stagers, if they on the opposite side of tbe House, and be might be called so, of the dock-yards. trusted they would explain away this This opposition was remarkable in the strange neglect. In the same place, and case of the stone basin at Portsmouth, of almost in the same spot, at Portsmouth, wbich the advantage was now universally where Mr. Brunell's improvements were acknowledged. He was glad to find the carrying on-improvements that, two or hon. baronet restored to good-humour. three centuries ago, would bave had their He did not know there was any more coningenious authors hanged for witchcraft-nexion between bim and rais, than betrucks were to be seen in a public depart-tween him and cats-(A laugh.] ment that would disgrace one of those Mr. Ponsonby, io a vein of pleasantry, American tribes whose boundaries were so observed, that he was not quite satisfied Jately the cause of contention. He trusted as to this affair of the rats ; for in the same such imperfections would be answered to page in which 41. was charged for the the public. He hoped the attention of the extirpation of these animals, he saw 21. 28. Admiralty would be turned to this subject, expended upon the keeping of cats. and that he might have the pleasure of Now, if the latter charge were correct, the witnessing the beneficial consequences of former was objectionable, for surely the bis suggestion.

cats ought to have destroyed the rats, Sir George Warrender said, that he could without the additional expense incurred not avoid uoticing the very pointed allu- in the returns. Why, therefore, should it sion of the hon. gentleman to bim, in his not to be explained? observation on the item for killing rats. Mr. Croker replied, that the cats were He should be always ready to meet the kept in a different yard from that occuhon, gentleman, pot only in that House, pied by the rats. But quitting that but on any other ground.

weighty consideration, and coming to one Mr. W. Smith rose to order. The bon. perhaps as important, he wished to de. baronet must surely feel that he was fend the first lord of the Admiralty from wholly unjustified in making any personal any indisposition towards the introducallusion to his hon. friend, who was merely tion of machinery into the public works. discharging a public duty, in the inquiries Among the workmen it was first necessary which he had made,

to explode volgar prejudices, before this Mr. Whitbread was sorry his hon. friend improvement could be made sufficiently had taken the trouble of explaining his operative. This had, however, been in a conduct, as he did not think it wanted great degree effected, particularly in the any explanation. He did not think any sawing branches of work. A basin was in thing the bon. baronet had said was dis. progress at Sheerness, similar to that of orderly, and would wish he had finished Portsmouth, and two steam-engines were his observations. He did not see what | in forwardness. He hoped, in the course relationship the killing of rats had to the of next year, these would be more genehon. baronet. He was sure he had not ral, and when their effects were fully intended any thing offensive to any gen- visible, that they would be introduced by tleman in what he had said on the sub- degrees into the great yards. ject.

Mr. Porbes suggested, that a great imSir G. Warrender said, that as the hon. provement in the manufacture of cablos gentleman had not intended any thing of could be introduced. Though not adopt ed at the public yards, it was well known lunar months, commencing the 1st April in the private ones. He himself, in India, 1815, at 1l. 15s. 6d. per man per month, had experienced its preference.

Mr. Whitbread said, that as an increased Admiiral Hope did not approve the plan number of seainen had been voted, it was alluded to.

a proper occasion to remark, that comMr. Whitbread noticed the great supe- plaints had been made of the very inaderiority of Huddart's cables, which he had quate manner in which the navy had been heard naval men say they would sooner manned during the last American war. trust their lives to, than to the King's-yard He hoped in future the Admiralty would cables.

proportion the number of ships to the Admiral Hope testified bis experience number of good seamen they could proof the goodness of the King's cables. cure, so that we might meet the AmeriManual labour might be diminished; but cans, if a war unfortunately broke out every new plan might not be executed so again with that people. fast in the King's as in the merchants' Admiral Hope said, it was impossible yards.

that we could man a navy of 70 or 80 sail Mr. Whitbread said, ibat the advantage as well as five or six frigates were manned in the difference between a macbine and by the Americans. If the number of our manual labour was great. The machine ships were as small, we could man them was never drunk, never went off to visit a four times over equally well. Our ships friend, never was idle when wanted, and had always been found to be better manalways made the same thing in the same ned than the French, and as well manned way. It was not exposed to the difference as a large fleet could be. The hon. adarising from various hands. Such was the miral expressed his confidence that the advantage in Huddart's invention. The best seamen would be found to come foranchor forges in the dock-yards, he was ward with alacrity to serve their country, convinced, might be improved, and that secured as they were of reward for their it might be found unnecessary for a man's services from ihe liberal measures which hand to wield a hammer. Machinery bad been adopted for that purpose, espemight effect this, and every blow given cially with regard to the institutions at would be the same, and money and human Greenwich and Chatham. labour saved. In Sweden ihe hammer Mr. Forbes alluded to the case of mas. was worked by water. The steam-engine ters' mates and midshipmen, which he was applicable to all such purposes. Mr. conceived to be one of extreme hardship, Brunell or Mr. Maltby would be very able deserving the attention of the House ; and to do what was wanied as well as in the observed, that he would, on some future present system of the smitheries.

occasion, notice it more particularly. Sir Joseph Yorke approved of the mode Admiral Hope stated, that it was the in practice for making ropes.

intention of the lords of the Admiralty Captain Pellew said, he had procured to keep afloat all those young men who had one of the other cables in China, which served during the war, as far as it was he found unserviceable.

possible ; and for that purpose a double Mr. Forbes repeated his own experience proportion of inferior officers was to be of their superior value.

kept up. He pronounced a warm eulo.' Mr. Croker said, that as soon as they gium on the conduct of the British navy, could be exempted from the liability during which the gallant admiral was to snap, which they possessed, he hoped loudly and repeatedly cheered. they would generally be made use of in Mr. Whitbread was glad that an oppor.

tunity had occurred for the gallant adMr. Whitbread asked, whether it was in miral's paying a tribute to the petty contemplation to give the captains of men officers of the navy. Nothing could be of war chronometers, which, he said, more grateful to them, than to know that would be of great use in long voyages.

their services bad been duly appreciated. Sir J, Yorke said, that that subject was He bad heard, bowever, that there were under the contemplation of the board of instances in which ships had been sent to Admiralty.

sea without their complements : and in The Resolution was then agreed to. one case, a gallant admiral bad actually 'On the second Resolution, “ That weighed his men, and sent up the account 355,000l. be granted to his Majesty for to the Admiralty, that they might know wages for the said 20,000 men, for ten the state of his crew.

the navy:

Mr. Croker did not deny but that at the refused on this ground, that others who latter period of the war many of the sea- had a prior claim from long service were men were of a very inferior kind, but not yet promoted. asserted positively that no ship ever was

Mr. Whitbread observed, that it had sent to a foreign station without having been much complained of, that while her complement of men.

military officers in an enemy's prison Mr. Whübread said, that as the hon. were allowed the discount which, from Secretary had spoken with such confi difference of exchange, they were obliged dence, he should refer to the officers from to pay, the same allowance was refused to whom he had received his information naval officers in the same situation. He upon this subject, and take occasion to could not conceive how such a distinction state the result to the House.

could be tolerated upon any principle of Admiral Hope, in corroboration of what equity. He recollected ihat when a fell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, motion was brought forward by an hon. observed, that the standing order was, friend of his (Mr. Bennet), to place the not to suffer any ship to leave the harbour officers of both departments on the same without her due complement.

footing, when on foreign service, that mo. Mr. Forbes expressed an apprehension tion was resisted upon this ground, that that the claims of the midshipmen had naval officers bad opportunities of obtainnot been sufficiently attended 10, and ing prize-money, from which military therefore he should feel it bis duty to

officers were excluded; but no such ground bring the subject before the House. could apply, where neither were in actual

Sir Joseph Yorke stated, that the Admi. service, when both were in a prison. He ralty had done much for the meritorious begged, therefore, to call the attention of class of officers alluded to by the hon. the Admiralty to this subject, and trusted gentleman, but it had not yet done all that the naval lords would take measures that was intended. With regard how to have justice done to their brethren. ever to what was urged on the score

Mr. Croker said, he had the satisfaction of length of service, merely as a claim to stale, that the moment the case alluded to promotion, he had to observe, that to by the hon. gentleman was represented several midshipmen had completed per. to the first lord of the Admiralty, measures haps ten years of service in a French were taken to place naval officers on the prison, wilhout having seen iwo years same footing with the officers of the army. previous service on board ; and would any The Resolution was then agreed to. naval officer consider such persons quali- On the Resolution, " That 907,5021. be fied to perform the duties of a lieutenancy? granted to his Majesty, for defraying

Lord Nugent said, he was informed that, superannuations, allowances, and among our squadron off the Scheldt in the pensions to officers of his Majesty's Navy course of the late war, two sail of the line and Royal Marines, their widows and wanted 130 men each of their full com- relatives, for the year 1815," plement, and that the ship of commodore Mr. Ponsonby took occasion to panegy: Owen was equally defective.

rise the justice and policy which dictated Mr. Rose expressed a hope that the an advance of the half-pay of naval offic hon. gentleman would not persist in his cers in 1806; observing, that he should motion with respect to the midshipmen, have been better pleased if that advance as the only effect of such a motion would had gone farther, and adding, that he be to render that deserving class discon. should feel it his duty, on an early occatented. He had no doubt that the claims sion, to make a proposition to the House of those officers, in whose favour he felt upon this subject. a lively interest, would be duly attended This Resolution, together with the reto. A great number of them indeed had maining ones, were agreed to without opalready been promoted, and such as were position. not promoted were to be maintained afloat, so that at all events such meritorious per- EMIGRANTS.] The Chancellor of the sons should not be turned adrift.

Exchequer moved, “ That 60,0001. be Mr. R. Ward, to show the impartiality granted to his Majesty, to enable him to of the Admiralty Board, cited a case in grant relief to such of the suffering clergy which he had applied to the first lord in and laity of France, Toulonese, and Cor. favour of a midshipman, who was a rela- sican emigrants, Saint Domingo sufferers, zion of his own; but his application was and Datch naval officers, who may heretofore have received allowances from his , advances made to the emigrants, and Majesty, and who may not have been whether any of the persons finally com. enabled to relurn to their own countries pensated, as the Chancellor of the Ex, in the course of the present year, or who, chequer stated, had again returned to this from services performed, or losses sus country? tained in the British service, may have The Chancellor of the Erchequer answered, special claims upon his Majesty's justice that none of them so compensated had or liberality.” He said, that of this sum again returned. 36,000l. was to have been paid by the The Resolution was agreed to.-On a King of France, but recent occurrences Resolution being proposed for a grant of had prerented the performance of that 6,0001. as a final compensation to the engagement. He thought several of those commissioners for examining and ascer. persons bad a peculiar claim on England, taining the boundaries of Windsor forest, as they had been employed by our Go. Mr. Whitbread said, that he understood vernment, and had wasted their property there was another commission which bad in our service.

been appointed to survey the royal parks Sir M. W. Ridley said, that however and forests, of which a noble lord (Yarungracious it might seem to make any mouth), and Mr. Bicknell, solicitor to the objection to a motion of this nature, he Admiralty and the Prince Regent, were thought it necessary upon such a motion the commissioners. He wished to know to suggest the propriety of considering who appointed those commissioners, or the distresses and burthens of our own what authority they had to act ? people, and to impress upon his Majesty's The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, ministers that no French emigrants capa- that the grant now proposed was the reble of serving their King in his present gular compensations to commissioners ap. emergency, should be encouraged to with pointed under an Act of Parliament passed draw from him by the prospect of a pro: several years ago, for three years services. vision from this country.

As to the other commission, it had been The Chancellor of the Exchequer assured laid before the Crown lawyers, to give the committee, that care would be taken their opinion as to its validity. 10 provide against any such encourage. On the motion, “ That 21,0001. be ment as the hon. baronet had stated. The granted to his Majesty, for defraying the fact, however, was, that it was not pro- extra charge for contingencies of the posed to provide for any persons from this three Secretaries of State, for the year fund but such as from old age and infir. 1815," mity were unable to afford any active Mr. Tierney said, he thought there support to their Sovereign in his present ought to be a more detailed account set state.

forth. He did not mean to say that the Mr. Whitbread asked, whether the pro- sum was too large; but he thought the posed vote was in addition to the 15,0001. House ought to be informed of the paralready voted?

ticulars for which it was given. The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered Mr. Arbuthnot signified bis readiness, in the affirmative, adding that out of the upon brnging up the report, to lay the 15,000.. alluded to, 8,0001. had been required information upon the table. granted as a final compensation to some Sir M. W. Ridley said, be thought the emigrants on quitting the country.

Secretaries of State were not sufficiently Mr. Whitbread said, that as it had been paid, and that the public would be better stated that 1600 emigrants had lately satisfied if their salaries were increased, come into the country, he hoped it was instead of having to come to Parliainent not intended by putting them on the Alien for those contingencies. list to make those emigrants an additional Mr. Arbuthnot repelled the idea that burthen upon us; for if so, the powers any part of those contingencies was apof the Alien Act might be abused, by propriated to the personal uses of the keeping some foreigners in the country, Secretaries of State. They were exas they had been heretofore abused by pended in coals, candles, stationery, and sending other foreigners out of it. The other articles for their offices. hon, member asked, whether in the course Sir M. W. Ridley explained, and said of their government the Bourbons had, that he had no intention of insinuating according to promise, paid any som to our any thing like what the right hon. gen. Government, as a compensation for the tleman seemed to apprehend.

Mr. Whitbread inquired, whether it was ago the Russian Government had negointended to bring forward, on the present ciated a loan in Holland, to the amount of evening, the vole of 9,0001. to enable the ten millions, for which the Russian Gocommissioners to purchase an estate for vernment alone was liable. At the Conthe family of the late lord Nelson?


of Vienna, however, an arrangement Mr. Lushington answered, that the re- had been made, as he had been informed, solution alluded to would not be brought by which it was agreed that Russia should forward until Wednesday next.

pay only one half of this summihat a Mr. Whitbread said, it was necessary to quarter of it was to be paid by Holland, know precisely when the vote would be and the other quarter by Great Britain. proposed, since strong objections existed Now, if this was correct, the British Goagainst it. An estate, it appeared, which vernment and nation had been pledged the present lord Nelson, and several of to the payment of a sum of no less than the commissioners, considered a very two millions and a half without any preeligible one, was offered for a sum which vious communication to Parliament, or any the original vote of Parliament would communication to Parliament, having as have covered, and the individual who had yet been made on the subject. This was the disposal of that estate, conceived that a most extraordinary step in the Executive a contract for its purchase had been en- Government, to engage the faith of the tered into with him.

country for a sum, the payment of which Mr. Rose said, that when the vote came must lay so heavy an additional burthen regularly before the House, he should be on the people, without any intimation to prepared to state, what he conceived to Parliament on the subject either before or be satisfactory grounds for the additional after the engagement had been entered aid of 9,0001. deemed necessary for the into. He wished the noble lord to explain purchase of a proper estate. He did not how this stood, and to slate whether such think he was now called on to state the an engagement had been really entered reasons which imposed the necessity of into under the circumstances which he applying to Parliament for this grant. had stated.

Mr. Whitbread. --Certainly not. All I The Earl of Liverpool said, he was wish for is, that when the vote is proposed, ready to admit, that as no taxes could be satisfactory grounds may be stated for the raised in this country without the consent additional grant.

and aid of Parliament, no obligations The House then resumed.

could be contracted of the nature to which

the noble earl had referred, except subHOUSE OF LORDS.

ject to the condition, that Parliament

would adopt the obligation, and take the Tuesday, April 25.

requisite steps for its fulfilment. Further TREATY OF VIENNA-RUSSIAN LOAN IN than that, he did not feel himself justified HOLLAND.] Earl Grey, adverting to the in giving any explanation at this moment; allusion in the first article of the Treaty but such a stipulation, if it had been of Vienna, to certain stipulations which entered into, “must come in its regular had been previously entered into, ob- course before Parliament, by wbich alone served, that unless their lordships were in the means of payment could be furnished. possession of those stipulations, it would Earl Grey said, he knew perfectly that be impossible for them to enter fully into no taxes could be raised in this country the consideration of the Treaty itself. without the consent and aid of Parliament,

The Earl of Liverpool replied, that the and that in that sense every such engagestipulations alluded to formed part of ment must be subject to the condition, those prior proceedings of the Congress that Parliament would enable the Execuwhich in due time would be submiited to tive to fulfil it. But in the mean time the consideration of Parliament.

Parliament, by the proceeding to which Earl Grey said, there was another point he had adverted, was put in this predicawith respect to which he was desirous of ment, that they must either exact the having some explanation. He had re- money and impose the burthen on the ceived information of so extraordinary a nation, or they must violate the national nature, that had it not come from good, i faith pledged by the Executive Governfrom indisputable avihority, he should be ment. It was on this account that, beinclined to think that it was not true. fore such an engagement was formed, He had been informed that some time Parliament ought to have been consulted, (VOL. XXX.)


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