Admiral HOLMES. They come down here and go straight in this way (indicating). Or they can come over through this area. In this last visit of the Soviet naval units, some of them came down around this way, and some of them came to Cienfuegos and through the Mona Passage between the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico. They came around this way, and then through the Yucatan Passage up to Havana. When they left, first of all they went out here off toward New Orleans. Then they came up right past here and went off to the east. As a matter of fact, I have here a little diagram of this which you might be interested in. Mr. KAZEN. Where do they get into the Atlantic? Admiral HOLMES. They come from the Northern Fleet, and they come out of the Mediterranean. This is the 1969 visit, and this is the 1970 visit. Mr. FASCELL. If you will pass that around, we will take a look at it. While we are looking at that, Admiral, on the same subject, I recall that a tremendous amount of U.S. coastal traffic that was disrupted by submarine activity in World War II. Did that occur inside the Grand Bahama Bank? Admiral HOLMES. Yes, sir; up and down the east coast and in the Caribbean. Mr. FASCELL. What was our major naval installation, a mainland base, for the purpose of antisubmarine activity at that time? Admiral HOLMES. Yes. Mr. FASCELL. Would that have been Key West? Admiral HOLMES. There was activity at Key West. Patuxent River. I am trying to recall whether Jacksonville was operational at that time or not. Miami. Of course, Guantanamo. Roosevelt Roads began to develop in World War II. It has grown ever since. CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS Mr. FASCELL. In a broad, general way, just so we can get some visual concept, what happened with respect to the movement of naval forces and military build-up in the Caribbean area at the time of the Cuban missile crisis? For example, like where were they? Admiral HOLMES. Where were the Russians? Mr. FASCELL. No. Where were we? Where was your force? You were not in command then, were you? Admiral HOLMES. No, sir. It was Admiral Dennison. The forces came down from the United States and deployed eastward from the Windward Passage, which is this passage here. The Russians were coming from over here. We detected submarines in company with the merchant ships. These were the merchant ships that very definitely had, as Mr. Fulton said, the long cases, and the big hatch ships which were really bringing the missiles that they were going to emplace. I forget the exact distance, but it was out here somewhere when President Kennedy said, "O.K., we know what you are up to. Knock it off." Our forces were out there. They were placed in there. They had a ring of forces backed up by maritime air, destroyer forces largely, on the order of 20, with a carrier behind them. They were keeping track of them. They saw we were positioned, and they turned around and went back. This was the greatest lesson to the Russians that they have ever learned, and they learned it the hard way, and I do not think they will make the same mistake again. They will not make the mistake for the simple reason that they have, obviously, embarked since that date upon a program to make sure that they do not have to knuckle under that way. Mr. FASCELL. Speaking of the Western Hemisphere? MISSILE EQUIPPED SUBMARINES Admiral HOLMES. In the Western Hemisphere in particular. They recognized that for these overseas ventures, they had to have a very viable maritime strength. Without it they could not succeed. This proved it to them. Since that time, their building programs have enlarged greatly. They have come out with all of their new ships, their new submarines. Their submarine forces have never been allowed to draw down much. It is still on the order of around 355 or 365 boats, of which upwards of 25 percent are nuclear powered. They have come along with their new KYNDA's, KASHIN's, KRESTA's, KANIN's, and KRUPNY's-all of these missile-equipped ships. They have their maritime aircraft out. Three times this year, BEAR aircraft have flown into Havana. These come unrefueled all the way from the Northern Fleet bases. Mr. FASCELL. It seems to me, in light of this, that the Russians have made substantial changes since the 1962 missile crisis in order not to get caught that way again. If they reach in the Caribbean or the Atlantic a force comparable to what they have in the Mediterranean, won't that change our whole policy posture? Mr. NUTTER. [Security deletion.] Mr. FASCELL. I know what it will do to our military posture. I am just wondering about policy. It puts everything on almost a confrontation basis. Mr. NUTTER. [Security deletion.] Mr. FASCELL. Is this the type of question that is now being asked [security deletion] with respect to Cuba? Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir. Mr. FULTON. Isn't the carrier a floating base in such a vast territory, as otherwise so many island and shore installations would be required. Use of U.S. carrier forces are the best answers to a viable military force in the Caribbean and South Atlantic area? I served on a U.S. Navy carrier, so I have been familiar with operational characteristics. Admiral HOLMES. I want to say that in making my reply, I am going to be just as objective as I possibly can, Mr. Fulton, and the answer is simply yes, very definitely so. I would like to make one other point, the fact that the antisubmarine warfare carrier has a great capability and is of great importance in this when you get down into the southern reaches where our bases are too far away. Mr. FULTON. Why would it not be wise to reimplement some of the CVE-type carriers? You really do not need heavy armament or planes with tremendous range or firepower, but you do need surveillance and you do need the antisubmarine procedures carried out. Would that be effective? Admiral HOLMES. They could be effective in that they could operate the antisubmarine warfare helicopters. I do not think they could handle the ASW fixed-wing planes such as the S-2. Mr. FULTON. But for helicopter purposes and surveillance, it would be effective? Admiral HOLMES. Yes. We have some antisubmarine warfare carriers in moth balls which would be better than CVE's. As a matter of fact, the CVE inventory has diminished markedly. SHIFT IN DIRECTION OF INSURGENCY Mr. FASCELL. Is there a noticeable shift in the direction of insurgency in the Caribbean area from the so-called rural type to the socalled urban type insurgency? Mr. NUTTER. Yes, we have observed some shifts in that direction. There is a greater amount of terrorism in the cities, which I think has been obvious in the kidnapings and assassinations that have been carried out. Mr. FASCELL. How does your program or the U.S. program respond to that kind of change? Is there a change in the type of assistance we give Latin America? Mr. NUTTER. Our assistance in this area is essentially training at the moment. It is in the training aspects of internal security that this newer problem would be addressed. We also have been taking measures to improve the protection of our own personnel in these areas. Mr. FASCELL. I had in mind, for example, that we furnished the Colombians with helicopters to enable them to deal with their insurgency problem. Allegedly, at this point the insurgency problem is rather limited in Colombia. Mr. NUTTER. Colombia has calmed down. Mr. FASCELL. Is the helicopter the frame of reference for our program response to urban terrorism in Latin America? It is essentially an instrument for coping with rural insurgency, is it not? Mr. NUTTER. I think it will differ in the different countries. Mr. FASCELL. You cannot use a helicopter in a city, or can you? I am serious. I know that in certain cases in the United States, we have found that an airborne vehicle that sits right up there at night, with a tremendous search-light, is better than squad cars and men on foot. So, I do not know. I am curious what our program response is to the changed situation in Latin America, if anything. Mr. NUTTER. I am sure that the materiel can be adapted to the problems we face. Mr. FASCELL. You are saying that you are not aware of any major shift in emphasis as far as the program is concerned? Mr. NUTTER. We are not, of course, selling very much in the way of equipment at the moment. So, we are not addressing that problem. MILITARY SALES LEGISLATION Mr. FASCELL. All right, let us let it go at that. What is your assessment of the effect on the internal security situation in Latin America if the military sales bill is delayed unduly or defeated? Mr. NUTTER. Delay or defeat of the military sales bill, Mr. Chairman, would have a serious effect on a great many of our programs, and certainly on those in this area. We think it would be most unfortunate if that bill were delayed or did not go through at all this year. Mr. FASCELL. Can you give us any particular case history that directly hangs on the question of the Military Sales Act being passed or not unduly delayed? Mr. NUTTER. We do have an outstanding request [security deletion] and we believe that it is important for their security to have them. Mr. FASCELL. That is for their major military force. Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir. Mr. FASCELL. There is no immediate emergency. That is more a political-military question than any kind of emergency. Mr. NUTTER. It is quite important, we believe, that we be able to furnish some material to the Latin Americans in order to help them maintain their internal security capability and to maintain our friendly relations with them. It is not a question of expanding their armed forces, but of reequipment. Mr. FASCELL. In other words, what you are saying is that we would have obvious political and military problems or embarrassments if this program is unduly delayed or defeated. We could live with it and get by, but it would create a lot of difficulties. Isn't that what you are saying? Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir. BLACK POWER MOVEMENT IN THE CARIBBEAN Mr. FASCELL. We have had some testimony about the Black Power movement in the Caribbean. I want to know, specifically, what is the extent, in your intelligence estimates, of direct Black Power connections emanating out of Cuba, in terms of money, direction, efforts, et cetera, and where does it go? Does it go to the islands of the Caribbean? Does it come into the United States? Mr. NUTTER. Mr. Chairman, as far as I know [security deletion]. Mr. FASCELL. There were reports at one time, as I recall it, of several identified people going through the Caribbean area, all black, loaded with money and stirring up trouble. Where they came from seemed to be some kind of mystery, but they were traveling, they were agitating, and they did have plenty of money. Do you know whether or not anything like that is going on now? Mr. NUTTER. I certainly would not want to say it is not going on. Mr. FASCELL. But you do not have any direct knowledge? Mr. NUTTER. I do not have direct evidence. Mr. FASCELL. I am like you. It is probably going on. I am wondering who is doing it and how. Mr. FULTON. Of course, one of our greatest Black Power leaders in the United States was born in Trinidad. Mr. NUTTER. There have been a couple of visits by Stokely Carmichael. |