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HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, July 4.

[BETHUNA AND MACKRETH.-THELLUSSON AND WOODFORD.]-Mr. Gibbs, Mr. Romilly, Mr. Dampier, and Mr. Markham, were heard on behalf of the defendant in error, and Mr. Erskine and Mr. Serjeant Lens in reply for the plaintiff; after which

The Lord Chancellor left the woolsack, and entered at very considerable length into a minute detail of all the various circumstances of the case, pointing out the bearings of each transaction connected with it, and concluding with reading a series of questions on the most leading points in the cause, which, with their lordships permission, he should submit to the consideration of the twelve judges. Before he did so, however, he would take the liberty of mentioning, that it occurred to him, that in one of the questions submitted to the judges, on the appeal of Theilusson v. Woodford, a sentence was omitted, which would have rather more completely embraced the entire object of that question, and rendered it more favourable to the appellant; he should, therefore, move the insertion of the sentence at the present opportunity. His lordship resumed the woolsack, and put the questions, which were ordered.

Lord Mulgrave then rose, and remarking upon the great importance of the subject, on which the questions had on a former day been submitted to the judges in the appeal cause of Thellusson and Woodford, suggested that it was not very likely that the judges should have been able to have made up their minds upon the points submitted to them by Monday next; they might, therefore, want more time for their own consideration of the subject, and after they had delivered their opinions in answer to the questions proposed to them, some noble Lords might also wish to state their own sentiments upon those opinions, but be desirous that some time should be allowed them for deliberation and investigation of the subject; it might therefore not come to an ultimate decision till such an advanced period of the session, when it could not be expected that there would be an attendance of noble Lords suffici ently numerous or becoming to give judg ment in a matter of the utmost importance to the interests of a considerable number of persons. His Lordship, therefore, said,

he really thought, that on every principle of common justice, the opinions of the judges should not be called for at an early day, nor indeed till a future session.

The Lord Chancellor put a question, stating, that the judges desired time of the questions put to them on the writ of error, Askew v. Sir Robert Mackreth; an order was made, therefore, for them to deliver their opinions on Tuesday the 26th instant. An order was al o made for the judges to give their opinions in the cause of Thellusson and Woodford on Monday next the 11th instant.

[ARMY OF RESERVE].-The order of the day being moved by Lord Hobart, and read, for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House on this bill,

Earl Suffolk said, he had no objection to the principle of the bill. Every man must be agreed upon the necessity of raising an additional force for the defence of the country. But he had some points to submit to his Majesty's ministers not contained in the bill, and he wished to know whether he would be at liberty at any future stage of the hill, in case he should forbear to urge them at that time.

Lord Walsingham answered, that if the noble Lord had any observations upon any particular clause, the proper time for doing so, would be when the clause should come to be read; but as to any general observations, the more regular way would be to reserve them for some future stage.

The preamble was then, as usual, postponed, and the question was severally put upon the succeeding clauses, which were agreed to without any observations, up to the clause confining the service of the force to Great-Britain and Ireland, and the islands of Jersey and Guernsey -The question being put upon the last-mentioned clau e,

The Duke of Cumberland rose, and spoke to the following effect: As a member of this assembly, and having the honour to hold a commission as an officer in his Majesty's service, I hold it my duty to speak my sentiments, whatever they may be, with openness and with candour upon the bill. As to the principle of the bill, every Briton must, in common with me, approve of it. When I consider the spirit of the country, when I consider the danger with which the rights and liberties of Englishmen are threatened; when I consider the insults and aggressions of the

First Consul of France, I feel that all must acknowledge the necessity of an additional force; and I am convinced, that if it were 100,000 men, instead of 50,coo, the country would gladly acquiesce. I rise not, however, for the purpose of proposing an augmentation, but for a different purpose. The bill, I perceive, embraces three descriptions of persons; persons chosen by ballot, volunteers, and substitutes. Now a substitute is a man receiving a bounty, upon the same principle as a man inlisting for the line, and I see no reason why his service should be limited to home defence; if then, there be no hardship in the case, it might be advisable to extend his service, and thereby increase the disposable force of the country. H. R. H. concluded with moving an amendment, for extending the service of the substitute to any place whatever.

Lord Hobart said, he had explained the nature of the measure when he first introduced it to the House. The principle of it was to raise an additional force for home defence, but the amendment proposed by the illustrious duke was contrary to that principle, as it went to apply it to foreign service: it was further objectionable, as it would make individuals bear the expense of furnishing recruits for the regular army. It was also to be observed, that the bill contained a clause for permitting any man raised under it to enter into the line. Here, then, was an opportunity opened for increasing our regular force, and the facility which it afforded might be defeated by the amendment. It was the intention of Government that the force proposed should be raised immediately, and the bill was framed in the manner most likely to obtain that end. If, however, any difficulty or obstruction should be raised, by making the terms of service harder, and consequently rendering persons reluctant to enter into it, that object would be in a considerable degree defeated. Besides, he could assure the illustrious duke, that arrangements were then making, by which a larger proportion of the force to be raised by the bill would be incorporated with regiments of the line. Such regiments, no doubt, must be of course limited to home service, but still there would remain a sufficient number for the purpose of foreign service. For all these reasons he found himself under the necessity of opposing the amendment.

The Earl of Moira was of opinion, that the true way of providing for defence would be to increase the regular army.

By having a large disposable forse for foreign operations, we should oblige France to garrison all her posts, and prepare for her defence upon all her points. If a contrary policy should be pursued, she would have nothing to do but to collect all her immense means, and choose her opportu nity to invade us. The result of this must be, that some of her attempts must prove successful, and though perhaps only upon a confined scale, the evil would be incalculable. These being his sentiments, he should approve the amendment of the illus trious duke, as it tended to increase our disposable force. The clause in the bill would be totally nugatory in that respect, as it was not compulsory, but merely left an option not likely to be adopted. By the amendment the object proposed would be secured, but as the clause stood, its attainment would be very uncertain. In his opinion, our best policy would be to increase the troops of the line. He knew a brigade consisting of four regiments, and he would venture to assert, that the whole brigade could not turn out 600 men fit to bear arms. The arrangement alluded to by the noble Sec. of State, he clearly understood from his description. He pre sumed it was to fill up the skeleton regi ments of the line with the new levies. He admitted, that when a parcel of recruits were mixed with one or two hundred ve terans, they might be brought into a complete state of discipline in three or four months. But what would be the consequence of the arrangement suggested? The skeleton regiments, so filled up, must be confined to home service, or if it is to be sent abroad, the part belonging to the army of reserve must be taken away, and its place supplied with raw recruits. The amendment of the illustrious duke, therefore, as tending to facilitate the increase of our regular force, had his approbation. We had a militia, a supplementary militia, and now comes a third class of domestic force. The price of the substitute has in consequence risen very high, and therefore it was impossible but that the raising of the present force must obstruct the recruit ing for the line.

Lord Mulgrave declared, that if the Government had proposed a levy of 100,000 men instead of 50,000, as pro posed by this bill, the measure should have his hearty concurrence. He could not, however, approve of the amendment moved by the illustrious duke, because he considered it would be a heavy and unexpect ed tax on the persons drawn by ballot,

who would be under additional difficulty and expense in finding substitutes. He was strongly of opinion, that the defence of this country would he best conducted by offensive operations after we should have provided for our own security; but the best reliance would always be in the spirit of the people. The energy of Englishmen could not be doubted when they thought their country was in danger; and, during the last war, there was sufficient proof that men of military habits would not object to unlimited service, when the occasion required it; for very soon after the passing of the bill for empowering militiamen to enter into regulars, notwithstanding the reluctance of the officers to part with those men whom they were at the trouble of training, we had an accession of 40,000 additional men, which enabled our armies to perform exploits which equalled the proudest times of the prowess of the nation. It would not, he believed, be deemed orderly in him, to refer to discussions in another place; but he was free to confess he never heard nor read of a better system, both of offence and defence, than was displayed on the occasion he alluded to; and he made no doubt but the enemy would find, on making the experiment, that there was much more military skill and science in this country, than they might have been led to imagine.

H. R. H. the Duke of Cumberland ex. plained-that conceiving a powerful attack upon the enemy at home, to be best suited to the dignity, and consistent with the antient renown of this country; but that he never meant that compulsory, unlimited service, should be extended to men drawn by ballot. What he submitted was, that persons entering as substitutes, and receiving money for doing so, should be on the same footing as the recruits for the line, who also received a bounty. However, as this proposal did not seem to accord with the general feelings of the House, he should not persist in his amendment, if their lordships would allow him to withdraw it.

Earl Grosvenor was entering into an elaborate justification of the measures proposed by his Majesty's ministers, when he was called to order by

Lord Mulgrave-who said, that the discussion which the noble lord seemed disposed to engage in, was not strictly applicable to the question before the House. His lordship thought the defence of the country was the principal object to be consulted at present. As to filling up the

old regiments, that may be made the subject of consideration to those within whose department it more immediately rested: he had the highest respect for the opinions delivered in the House by high military characters; but however he might wish for a large disposable force, he conceived that it would be time enough to employ it when the country was out of danger.

Lord Carlisle thought the measure rather inadequate to the object proposed, but would not object to the bill, because he thought no time should be lost in proceeding upon this preliminary measure. His lordship was then proceeding to arraign the ministers for their tardiness and want of an early display of spirit, when he was also called to order.

Lord Darnley defended the train of arguments which the noble lord was embracing, and was pursuing a similar course, when he was called to order by

The Lord Chancellor, who said, that his observations had no immediate reference to the question before the House.

Lord Darnley said, he did not think himself by any means deviating from the question, and again renewed the same line of observation.

The Lord Chancellor again interrupted him, and complained that the strict orders of the House were very seldom complied with. On many occasions, when he attempted to enforce them, he was sorry to find that he was not sufficiently supported; and if noble Lords continued to go on in the same way, it would be necessary to determine, before the end of the present session, whether the House should abide by its orders or neglect them.

Lord Darnley then said, that he should take occasion, in another stage, to deliver his sentiments more at large upon the subject.

Lord Hobart conceived, that the situation in which he stood, entitled him to particular attention, while he attempted to explain the general merits of the ques tion,

The Lord Chancellor called him also to order, observing, that the general defence of the conduct of ministers did not bear upon the amendment then under consideration.

Lord Pelham claimed the indulgence of their lordships whilst he proceeded to justify the measure now proposed. He perfectly agreed with those noble lords who stated, that the best mode in which we could carry on the war, was by a direct attack upon the enemy, but he thought the

country ought to be assured of its own seeurity, before such a proceeding should be resorted to. Let the people feel themselves safe, and let them then annoy the enemy, and attack him in those quarters where he was most vulnerable.

This country, he was convinced, could not long want the means of hostile operations against France by a foreign force, which would be, and heretofore was always proved to be, the soundest policy of the united kingdom. His lordship then proceeded to explain the advantages of this plan in the present instance; but scarcely added any thing to what had been repeatedly urged before, in the House of Commons, when the bill was there under discussion.

Earl Spencer was decidedly for dispatch in this new levy. An additional land army of 40,000 men for England and 10,000 for Ireland must have a real effect, in whatever manner it might be disposed of. He acknowledged that he should have been much better pleased with such an addition to the troops of the line, and the more so, as he thought this ballotting must interfere with, and in a great measure suspend, the recruiting for the regulars; but at all events no time should be lost, and he should support the measure as being the commencement of a more enlarged military system.

The amendment of the Duke of Cumberland was, with the consent of the House, withdrawn.-The different clauses of the bill were then agreed to with some trifling amendments, and the chairman obtained leave to make the report.

Lord Suffolk said, that though he might not be perfectly regular in then speaking of the merits of the bill before them in the present stage, yet as it regarded the defence of the country, he must consider himself to be perfectly in orderbut his Lordship being here interrupted by a cry of order! he said he should reserve himself for a future opportunity.

Lord Moira called upon the Noble Secretary for an explanation of the meaning of the clause, which according to his construction of it, appeared to give most unnecessarily a gratuitous exclusion. to the substitutes, who had voluntarily entered into regiments of the line, from going abroad, even if they expressed their desire so to do. His Lordship said, in the course of the war, it might be thought expedient to attack a fort or military position on the enemy's coast, or to send a regiment or two out to defeat an armament on the sea, and he saw no reason

why ministers should deprive themselves of the service of the substitutes admitted into regiments of the line, if they volunteered their services, in the case of their regiments being sent on general service abroad.

Lord Hobart explained, that the clause meant to hold out to all who volunteered, or acted as substitutes for those ballotted for militia men, that no more should be exacted from them than was originally con tracted for.

The Committee then went through the other clauses, and the bill was reported without amendments.

Lord Hobart moved two verbal amend. ments on the report, which were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a second time the next day.

Lord Mulgrave rose, he said, to move the suspension of two standing orders, agreeably to the notice he had given on Friday last; but, as the present bill had been reported without amendments, it did not come within the purview of those orders. There were several other important bills now pending, confessedly of a press ing and urgent nature, upon which he should move the suspension of those or ders, which direct that no bill shall be passed two stages in one day. At a future opportunity, it was, his Lordship said, his intention to call the attention of the House more particularly to the standing orders, and move to rescind them.

The Lord Chancellor made a few ob servations on the importance of the person who sat on the woolsack, not putting two questions in one day on one and the same bill. But a motion to rescind the two orders was a very serious consideration. There were precedents of the House's having agreed to pass them over, of which instances they had repented them heartily in less than four and twenty hours. On the other hand, there might occur cases of such importance and emergency, as to justify to pass a bill through all its stages in one day; one had occurred recently, in which every Noble Lord must have felt it to be his duty to accede to this line of conduct. All he meant to say was, that it ought to be a case of imperious necessity that could alone justify the departure from the necessary caution, which ought to be preserved in respect to the violation of the standing orders of the House; and for his own part, he thought it the most prudent part to preserve the standing orders, as it always was, whenever deemed necessary, in the power of the House to suspend

any standing order, pro hac vice, or for any given period

Lord Mulgrave moved to suspend the standing orders in question, on the Scotch army of reserve, or additional militia bill. Ordered.

Lord Grosvenor then said, he should not be able to be present next day, and readily gave up the observations he had meant to offer, if he had not been called to order in the Committee, and which, he had then said, he would make at another Opportunity.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, July 4.

[MINUTES.] The East India docks bill was recommitted. Mr. Calcraft proposed a clause for limiting the powers granted under the bill for twenty-one years, which was adopted, and the report of the committee ordered to be received next day. The report of the additional army of Ireland bill was received, and ordered to be recommitted.Mr. Vansittart brought up the five million loan bill, which was read a first time.

[FRIENDLY SOCIETIES, AND POOR.]Mr. Rose brought in a bill for rectifying mistakes in the registry of the rules of friendly societies. It was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time the next day. —Mr. Rose then proceeded to make a motion, of which he had given previous notice. The measure he had in view comprehended three objects. 1st, The comfort of the poor in old age; 2ndly, employing them, espe cially youth, in useful industry; and, 3dly, the prevention of crimes. If the House should give him leave to bring in the bill, for which he was about to move, it was his intention to suggest a much more simple measure than any that had hitherto been proposed for the amelioration of the poor laws. The measure he had in view was nothing more than sup plying materials for schools of industry, and stimulating the minds of the young to sober, industrious habits. Plans had been adopted in some districts, which he knew, in consequence of which, the children of the poor not only maintained themselves, but assisted in the support of their parents. In one dis trict in Lincolnshire, where pains had been taken to create a spirit of industry among the poor, children at the age of 13 or 14, earned five and six shillings a week; but in the same alistrict, in the year 1777, out of 80,000 1. of poor-rates, 50,000!. was applied to the support of the poor, and the remainder spent in VOL. IV.

journeys of the overseers and other parish of ficers. However wise it might be to get rid of the workhouse system, it was necessary, before that was attempted, to fall on some means of employing the poor. He hoped the time would arrive when it would be found necessary to maintain none but children who had been deserted by their parents in workhouses; and there were not wanting examples that even such children might be better managed than they were by the parishes. Another object he had in view, was to ascertain the number and situation of the friendly societies in this country. Wherever there were friendly societies, a great proportion of the poor were maintained by themselves. The money thus raised was laid out in the most advantageous manner for the state, as it was almost always invested in the public funds. Five or 600,0001 of stock belong to the labouring poor of this country. It was his opinion that those societies should be entitled to some assistance from the parishes, in consequence of their preventing so great a proportion of the poor from becoming a burthen upon the rates. The money supplied by the parishes he would propose should be laid up by the societies to form a supplementary fund for the support of their aged members; from which a man, whose earnings in old age fell short of what he used to receive in the meridian of life, might have the deficiency supplied. If a man had been accustomed to earn 103. 6d. and now received only Ss. or Os. a week, he should be allowed 25. or 1s. 6d. from this fund. He concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for procuring returns relative to the expense and maintenance of the poor of England."-Leave given.

[INFERIOR CLERGY.]-Mr. Burton rose to move for leave to bring in a bill for the relief of the inferior clergy. The object of the bill would be to give, or rather restore to the commissioners of Q Anne's bounty the power of augmenting the revenues of poor curates, and to open a door to private benevolence for that purpose: this was the original intention of the act of Q. Aune, and such was its operation until it was altered by the act of the 9th of G. II. The statute of Q Aune, after the appropriation of the first fruits, invites her Majesty's subjects to follow her example, by will or deed. The number of livings under fifty pounds a year, he was well informed, was nearly six thousand. This charity, therefore, stood as much in need of private aid as any other. In the debate on the clergy residence bill, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed his wish that

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