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jury liable to be reduced to the same cir cumstances of the person standing charged before him? Is there not a sympathy subsisting hetween the jurors and the persons whom they try-a sympathy that gives con-, fidence to every man, that, if he has justice and equity on his side, it is the interest and congenial to the feelings of the jury to acquit him? In an ordinary court martial also, the officers composing that court martial were called to the trial of men of their own character and profession-men who had been similar to themselves, and to whose circumstances they were uncertain but they themselves might likewise, at some fature period, be reduced. Here also there existed that sympathy and fellow feeling which ope rated in favour of the person to be tried. But the circumstances of a court martial trying criminals accused of rebellion were very different. The persons brought before them had different interests, and would seem to be almost of a different species. From the circumstances of a country in such a situation, they were too apt to meet their victims with anger and passion, which must ever be hostile to the deliberative measures either of justice or mercy. They feel too great an interest as a party to listen with that partiality which ought always to be extended to the unfortunate. If such would naturally be the case with almost all men in such circumstances, how much more ought the house to guard against the passions or prejudices of rash, unthinking, or unfeeling youth. In some instances he was aware the amendment he proposed to make might be attended with difficulty; but the lord lieutenant, he thought, might in such instances have a discretionary power. In times such as the present we ought to place some confidence in the government, particularly in cases where the letter of the law could not with so much advantage be enforced.The hon. gent. concluded with stating, that in his opinion such courts martial as the bill alluded to, should not consist of more than thirteen, nor of less than seven, and that none under age should be admitted to sit in those courts.

The Speaker stated, that the object of the hon. gent. could only be obtained by moving a separate and distinct clause to be introduced into the bill.

Mr. Wilberforce accordingly made out the clause at the table, and read it to the house. On the question being put that the clause be brought up,

Colonel Wood said, he had no objection to the amendment proposed by the hon. gent, but rather than give any discretionary

power to the lord-lieutenant, he thought it would be more eligible to dispense with the number seven proposed by the hon. gent., and admit five as the smallest number that should constitute a court martial. He was inclined to be jealous in conceding discretionary powers to government that were not absolutely necessary.- -The clause was brought up and read a first time. On the question being put that it should be read a second time,

His

Mr. Secretary Yorke observed, that he could not agree entirely with the hon. gentleman who had proposed the amendment, though he was ready to give him full credit for the sincerity of his intentions. great objection was, and he thought it must occur to every person, that this amendment was inconsistent with the original spirit of the measure proposed by the bill. The bill was of such a nature as could only be warranted by necessity. If there was no necessity for the measure, it would be better to discharge the bill entirely; but if the measure was thought necessary, which the hon. gent. fully admitted, such an amendment as he proposed would entirely defeat its object. Were it possible for regular courts to sit, or for legal juries to be assembled, there would be no occasion for such a measure; but neither regular courts nor legal juries could meet with safety to themselves in the present circumstances of the country, and it was for this reason only that the measure was brought forward. Was it possible, the right hon. gent. asked, that any court in the very heart of rebellion could previously go through any tedious. process to ascertain the particular qualifications of its members, or would it be proper that every officer, in order to ascertain his age, should carry a certificate in his pocket? The principle on which the hon. gent, proceeded would go entirely to prevent, in many instances, the assembling of any court together, and at times too when it might be most necessary. The right hon. Secretary concluded by stating that, if the bill is at all necessary, it ought to pass as it is, and if not necessary it ought to be entirely dismissed; but the amendment, it was obvious, would go to defeat its object.

Mr. Windham thought that no restrictions of the kind the amendment went to establish ought to be introduced in courts martial. If he were to state his objection to courts of this description, he would say that they were not so competent as others. But this objection referred entirely to that degree of judgment which men of such habits and pursuits were likely to exercise.

The great

criterion to be sought for in courts, to which

either the lives, the properties, or the privileges of men were to be tried, was judgment. But the hon. gentleman had not founded any of his reasons of amendment upon this broad and ostensible principle. He had objected to the general constitution of courts martial on the score of sympathy. It was not probable that any of those gentlemen composing a court martial would ever be reduced to the melancholy circumstances of those brought before them for trial. If this objection on the score of sympathy and feeling had any weight, it would militate equally against all courts martial. Did not courts martial try private soldiers as well as their brother officers, and would the hon. gent, say that officers could have that sort of sympathy with private soldiers which he was disposed to derive from an idea of a probability of being involved in similar circumstances? The truth was, that here there was no such sympathy as the hon. gent, pleaded for; and would he or any other gentleman say that that house ought to be more tender of the lives of rebels in Ireland, than of the lives of private soldiers who formed the strength and defence of the country? and yet the hon. gentleman's motion went to shew that where we neglected the interests of the private soldier, we should be anxious to provide for the safety of rebellion. But the hon. gent. was apprehensive of the rashness and undiscriminating judgment of such officers as were under age. For his own part if any want of feeling was to be apprehended, it was not, he thought, from young men warm with all the feelings, and all the sympathies of youth. If any such danger was to be apprehended, it was from men rather grown old in the prejudices and passions of a party; it was from men who had grown callous by long habits of severity. The right hon. gentleman concluded by saying, that in regard to the principle or necessity of the bill, he was not at present called upon to give his opinion. He could not say it was necessary, and he was not prepared to say that it was unnecessary. But at all events if the bill was necessary, the amendment went in a great measure to defeat its object, and was besides founded on a principle that militated against courts martial of every description.

Mr. Wilberforce, in explanation, said, he did not mean to cast any reflection on the integrity of young officers; but he thought they wanted steadiness, and the right hon. gentleman confirmed the opinion, when he spoke of the warmth of their feelings, That

warmth may incline one way as much as another.

Dr. Laurence disapproved of the clause; the remedy was not such as should be ap plied. When the general measure was before the house, his object had been to render courts martial as like as possible to those under the muiny act. The president, under that act, should be a field officer, and age and experience were secured by the rank. He did not see why the same regulation should not hold in the present instance, nor why the courts should not consist of the same number of officers as in all other parts of his Majesty's dominions, except two places, where circumstances did not permit it. The number of troops in Ireland afforded every facility, and it was the more necessary to have this tribunal liberally constituted, as it took the individuals out of the cognizance of the other courts. The objection of the hon. gentleman, on the score of passions, amounted to nothing more than the general evil of human infirmity; and if it was to be regard ed, we could not have a judge or juror against whom objections could not be made. His, objection was to the preamble, which took so wide a range, that robbing a h-nroost might be construed into an act of rebellion. The hon. gentleman had observed on a former night, that angels could not be trusted with arbitrary power: his present opinion went to say, that after twenty-one, it lost its corruptive nature.

Lord Archibald Hamilton said, there appeared to him to be two reasons held out for voting the present measure; one was, the late insurrection in Dublin. If the hope expressed in his Majesty's speech, and the address in answer to it, was to be relied on, it was a measure of precaution. Precaution against what? Was it against rebellion, against insurrection, against dissatisfaction in the people against the government? No. If he were to exercise his own understandng, he would say it was not a precaution against fear, or against danger, but against the confidence and hope expressed by his majesty's ministers. Bearing in mind the sad and calamitous consequences which attended this measure when it first passed, he could not approve of the continuance of it; and he wished to give it this decided mark of his disapprobation. The question being put, the clause was negatived. On the question, that the bill be read a third time to-morrow,

Admiral Berkeley rose, not to oppose the bill, though his Majesty's ministers gave no satisfactory reason why it should pass, but to give notice that he should on an early

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day, the earliest he could after the recess, move for the production of certain papers, which he hoped would clear away the im putation which, from something that had been said on a former night, now very unjustly rested on the character of the late commander in chief in Ireland (General Fox). The Chancellor of the Exchequer called on the hon. admiral to state.

Admiral Berkeley said, he alluded to what the chancellor of the exchequer said, "that the commander in chief had early intelligence of the intended insurrection on the 23d July."

The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied having used these words. A gentleman, who spoke in the early part of the debate on the night he alluded to (Mr. W. Elliot) having said, that no instructions had been given to the commander in chief, no communication made to the lord mayor; he had said, that instructions had been given to the lord mayor through the superintending magistrate, a police officer well known to the hon. gentleman. He took the earliest opportunity of declaring, that he had not the most distant idea of casting any imputation on the officer alluded to, nor had he heard, except from the hon. gentleman, that there was the smallest idea that any imputation was supposed to exist. He was sure, that whenever the con.uct of the late commander in chief in Ireland, came to be considered, it would be found as free from blame, and as creditable to that deserving officer, as any other part of the conduct of the Irish government was, to the general credit which the conduct of that government had obtained,

Admiral Berkeley. -The right hon. gentleman has mistaken me. I did not mean to say, that I conceived any imputation against that meritorious officer from the words that he spoke: yet, I do think, they conveyed an aspersion. Ths hon. officer himself thinks so; nor is he the only person who does think so. The right hon. gentleman said, that early intelligence was sent to the commander in chief.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer.-What I said was, that information had been sent, at an early hour, to the superintending magistrate.

Mr. J. C. Beresford observed, that to any gentleman acquainted with Dublin, it could not appear at all surprising, that the insurrection of the 23d of July should happen (even if such had been the case) without the knowledge of government or the commander in chief. It took place in the most obscure part of the city, proceeded only through three · VOL. IV.

streets, and was put down in one hour. He also observed, that the night was remarkably dark. From these circumstances, the hon. member inferred, that this disturbance might have occurred without the knowledge of the civil government or the commander in chief; without attaching any blame to either, for neglect of duty or inattention.

Mr. T. Grenville not having before taken any part in the discussion of the measure before the House, did not mean to oppose it in the stage to which it had arrived; nor should he have, on this occasion, troubled the House with any observations, if some expressions, which had fallen from the right hon. secretary, had not compelled him to it, in order to exclude himself from that general conviction of the necessity of the measure which had been said to exist. He should not take up the time of the House, by entering into an inquiry whether the measure were necessary or not? but he would contend, that from the information which his Majesty's ministers had thought proper to give, no inference could be drawn of the existence of that necessity. When his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), on the first introduction of the measure, had applied for a short delay, in order that information might be laid before the House, his application had been rejected on the ground that the smallest delay would be dangerous in the then existing circumstances. Though he was not in the Houss himself on that occasion, he was at the time fully sensible of the justice of the application, but whatever argument might have applied in that instance against delay, there could be none to apply in the present. The two bills now in their stages through the House, would not expire till six weeks after the commencement of the present session. The session had commenced on the 22d of November, and the bills would of course not expire till the 1st or 2d of January. He therefore put it to the House, what possible argument could be used against a short delay, until such information should be communicated to the House, either by the report of an open of secret committee, as should justify the adop tion of such strong measures. It had been more than once his lot to complain of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, in brings ing forward measures of great importance, without laying sufficient information before the House; and he took this opportunity of protesting against the manner in which that two bills before the House had been inposduced. There was another circumster of too that should weigh with parliamen ques* U u eferred

which materially affected the spirit of the constitution: he meant the operation of such a course of proceeding in the legislative union. Since the passing of that measure, it had become more than ever the duty of his Majesty's ministers to shew to the people of Ireland, that every measure involving their interests, not only claimed but received as much discussion and attention as it would, if their own legislature still continued to assemble. It was particularly their duty to avoid giving the slightest ground of suspicion, or suffering any one to fancy that the affairs of that country were not fully attended to. He did not mean to oppose the completion of the two bills before the House, though, if he were to follow the example of other gentlemen, in stating the ground of his private opinion, he should feel embarrassed, and considerable difficulty in making up his mind on the subject. The House had no documents to ascertain whether the measure were the wisest or most proper for Ireland; they had no official information whether the situation of that country was such as to require coercive measures; they had no ground on which to rest their proceedings, but the language of his Majesty's ministers, that language generally varying, and always changing. He meant nothing ungracious to his Majesty's ministers individually, but, as a member of Parliament, he was bound to speak his sentiments openJy, and say, he could have no confidence in their administration, neither in the wisdom of their measures, nor in the activity with which they executed them. The hon. gentleman entered here into a train of severe comments on the conduct of ministers, and on their incapacity. He then adverted to the manner in which the notice of his hon. friend (Admiral Berkeley) had been so quickly commented on by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had expected that his hon. friend's observations would have met with a very different reception. That challenge which ministers had on a former day given, when they deprecated a discussion by a side wind, they now had an opportunity of deciding by the proposition of the hon. Admiral respecting his hon, relation; and the more the House investigated the conduct of ministers, the more fully would they discharge their duty.

Mr. Secretary Yorke did not intend to follow the hon. member through the details of his speech, because nothing that had fallen in him appeared to him to require an anthe He was anxious, however, to say a gentlords, which he had not before an opspoksity of doing, on the observations of the

hon. Admiral. The hon. Admiral had given notice of a motion for certain papers, in consequence of an aspersion which he conceiv ed to be thrown on the character of an honourable relation. His right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had distinctly stated, in answer to the bon. Admiral, that no such aspersion had been meant, either by himself, or any other member of govern ment; and had correctly repeated the language he had used on the occasion. The right hon. Secretary here re-stated what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had before stated in explanation, and insisted that no direct nor implied aspersion was contained in the terms used. Whatever conduct the hon. Admiral should think proper to observe, would be for himself to determine; but after what had passed, he must bring forward his motion, n't in consequence of any aspersion on the hon. General, for whom he felt himself a very high respect as a meritorious and distinguished officer, but as a direct charge on his Majesty's government in Ireland, which he should be ready to meet, The right hon. Secretary wished also to state a few words, which he had omitted on a former day, in answer to an observation which had been made by an hon. gentleman (Mr. Elliot), by way of criticism, not of crimination, respecting the Lord Lieutenant's going to the Park on the night of the 23d of July. The usual residence of the Lord Lieutenant was in the Park, whence he used to return every day about two o'clock to the Castle, to receive such information as might have been procured by the subordinate officers of the government. He had come to the Castle, on the 23d, and after receiving the information respecting the projected insurrection, had held a consultation on the expediency of his remaining in the Castle, the result of which was, that it was consi dered better for him to return to the Park, as the circumstance of removing his family to town might create considerable alarm. Every body who knew his lordship, would do him the justice to suppose that he would not leave Dublin from apprehension on such an occasion; nor was it probable that he should consider a serjeant's guard in the Park a better security than a garrison of 4000 men in Dublin.

Mr. Windbam thought, that as a charge might arise out of the statement that had been made, either against the Irish government, or the Commander in Chief, that the hon. Admiral might, notwithstanding the explanation that had been given, bring forward his motion, though not for crimina tion, for the justification of his hon, rela

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HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, December 8.

[MINUTES.]-The Malt Duty Bill, the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, the Irish Martial Law Bill, the East India Bonds Bill, and the Qualification Indemnity Bill, were severally read a third time, and passed.-The Pension Duty Bill, the Five Million Loan Bill, the Expiring Laws Bill, the Irish Corn Exportation Bill, the Irish and the British Sugar Drawback Bills, the Irish Silver Note Bill, the Curates' Relief Bill, and the Irish Oats Distillation Bill, were reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.-Lord Castlereagh stated at the bar, that his Majesty had been waited upon with the address of that House upon the subject of his most gracious communication respecting General Burton being taken into custody; and that his Majesty had been pleased to receive the address in the most gracious mar.ner.-His lordship informed the House also of the gracious reception of the address respecting the sums of money which that House had voted and had yet to make good.The Portugal Wine Bonding Bill had several new clauses added, the most prominent of which was one extending the benefit of the act to the importers and proprie. tors of Spanish Wine. The report was or dered to be received to-morrow.-The Irish Inland Navigation Accounts were ordered to be printed.

[NAVAL INQUIRY.J-Sir W. Elford adverted to a motion which had been made by him during the last session of Parliament, respecting the dismissal of a gentleman from his employment in his Majesty's dock-yards. He wished now to know, and he was happy to find that an hon. baronet was now in his place in that House, who might possibly have it in his power to inform him, whether it was the intention of the commissioners appointed under the authority of that house, to make any report upon the subject?

Sir C. Pole said, that in his opinion there

was not any such an idea at present among the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry.

Sir W. Elford then desired to be informed if it was not intended to mention the name of that gentleman, or make any observation whatever upon the subject to which he alluded?

Sir C. Pole then told the hon. baronet that most probably that gentleman's name might be mentioned, but he did not think it a circumstance by any means likely to occur, that any comment should be made upon the subject.

[CURATES' RELIEF BILL.-On the Order being read for receiving the report of the Stipendiary Curates' Residence Bill,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that, in consequence of the absence of his right hon. friend who had been the mover of that bili, he thought it would be most proper to postpone the consideration of that report for the present; and as he had no doubt that the house would immediately concur in that opinion, he should move that the report be taken into further consideration to-morrow. There would most probably be a good deal of business then before the house, but it could easily be further pos'poned till a more important discussion should happen to arise. The consideration of the report was then deferred till to morrow.

[SIERRA LEONA COMPANY.]————Mr. H. Thornton presented a petition from the Sierra Leona Company, praying for pecuniary assistance from Parliament.

The Speaker observed, that he thought it his duty to inquire, before such a petition was entertained as the present, whether it had received the approbation of his Majesty, as it would, if the prayer should be finally agreed to, be voting away the public money to the use of individuals, which required that fact to be first ascertained.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that he thought there could be very little difference of opinion as to the probability, or even the certainty, of his Majesty's giving t a most gracious reception, as a petition for a grant of 10,000l. had at a former period received that sanction.

Mr. H. Thornton then moved, that the petition be referred to a committee, to examine the matter therein contained.

Mr. Dent stated, that the report of the state of the company's tunds had been so very favourable, that in his opinion, that was in itself, the very best reason that possibly could be against granting the prayer of a petition for parliamentary aid.--The question was then put, and the petition referred to a committee.

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