system. Since that system originated, the House has had the advantage of experience to judge of its nature and effects, and is that experience in its favour? How shall we form any fair opinion of it but from that experience; and yet the right hon. gent. under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) would, if his opposition to any retrospect were attended to, entirely preclude us from consulting that criterion. In all points of legislation, it is our obvious duty to consider the mode in which the laws are to be executed; but, in the point which relates to the system now under discussion, this manner of execution is the principal thing. We have heard that the machinery of this system was bad, and certainly, in my opinion, nothing could be worse, except the views which induced the proposition of it. And shall it then be said, that although the machinery has been found, from universal experience, to be so very exceptionable, the system is still to go on, truly, because Parliament, in the course of last session, approved of it; but the period which bas since elapsed, has proved that it is not calculated to promote the object ministers profess to have in view, namely, the vigorous prosecution of the war. These remarks I mean principally to apply to the system of the volunteers, which forms the most prominent feature in the present debate, and the question with respect to which has been put on very fair grounds by the right hon. gent. on the same bench with me, (Mr. Windham) and with all whose sentiments on the subject I entirely agree. That right hon. gent, stated, that he considered that in the present crisis the defence of the country would be better consulted, and the attack of the enemy better provided for, by the increase of our regular land force, than by the embodying of so many volunteers. He also stated, that the volunteers were rather so many then with-held from our effective force, than so many added to it. He did not, however, say any such thing as that which was ascribed to him by the noble lord, that the regulars were the only army which he would recommend to be raised in the present situation of affairs, but that the description of troops he would propose to be added to the regular army, would be very different from that which the volunteer system had collected. That the patriotic feeling and the martial ardour which the volunteers have manifested entitled them to the highest praise, no man could doubt; but the sentiment of the right hon gent. and mine also is, that this ardour might be much better directed, and much better employed in another way. How differently,

however, does this right hon. gent, and the right hon. gent. under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) consider this institution, and the manner in which it may and ought to be used for the public safety. Though the views of both are distinct, yet both agree in thinking the volunteers, according to their present constitution, exceedingly imperfect. The right hon. gent. on the same bench with me does not deny that, even as they now stand, they may be useful, but maintains that a greater degree of utility might be derived from the same men under 'a different system; that they are not an adequate substitute for the regular army, nor fit to act with them. The right hon. gent. under the gallery considers the volunteers as laying the foundation of a future military association, upon which the country might be able to rely for its defence, in case it should become advisable, in the course of the war, to send all our disposable force out of the country, What! men who, according to the letter of the act, are only required to submit to twenty days discipline in the course of the year, in order to exempt them from being ballotted for the militia, and to shelter them from regular service and martial law, to be reckoned upon as likely to become, in any reasonable tinie, qualified to supply the place of a regular army, and to have the safety of the country committed to their protection! Really I do not fully understand the meaning of the right hon. gent. on this point. It seems to be his view, that the volunteers are hereafter to be converted inta something like a disposable regular force. Such a thing is not within the contemplation of the bill upon which the volunteer system is grounded I certainly do not so understand it; and I am fully sure that the members of the volunteer associations do not by any means so understand it. I should wish to know the sentiments of his Majesty's ministers upon this question. Last session it was understood that the volunteers were to be drilled only on Sundays, in order that the progress of their discipline should not interfere with their respective avocations. This is a collateral circumstance, but is yet material to the point in view; because, if it were the object of the framers of the bill to make the volunteers, within any reasonable time, convertible into an efficient force, they undoubtedly would, as they ought, to have prescribed that much more time should be devoted to the learning of military dis cipline; in fact, that no time should be lost. But, according to the original principle of the bill, the volunteers were not in any case to go into the army, that is, to enter into

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the regular regiments as regular soldiers. agree with the right hon. gent. under the gallery, that the volunteers should be allowed pay for such days as they are called upon to attend drill, for it would be extremely unfair to admit the idea, that industrious men of family should be expected, from patriotism, to devote so much of their time to military service for the public good,without any pecuniary compensation; although I cannot comprehend clearly, and where I can comprehend cannot approve, the other remarks he made upon the subject. I should be glad, indeed, to hear in what light those remarks are regarded by ministers, by whom the generality of the observations of the right hon. gent. on the same bench with me (Mr. Windham) seem to be quite misconceived; and I am the more anxious that those observations should be clearly represented, as they happen to be so expressive of the opinions that I myself hold. The right hon. gent, did not say, as the noble lord stated and argued upon, that the volunteers formed a force that was locked up from the public use; but that many of those who might have composed the necessary increase of the regular army were locked up in the institution; and so they are, by the exemptions which volunteers enjoyed from being ballotted for the militia or the army of reserve. This was the complaint of the right hon. gent, and it is mine. Another right hon. gent. on the same bench with me (Mr. T. Grenville) has observed, that no recruits are likely to enter into the army from the volunteer corps. It does not appear to me desirable that such a thing should be sought for. I hope it can never be in the contemplation of any man to use any compulsion for such purpose, towards those who have entered into volunteer corps, under the express understanding which the bill contains. The honour of the country, and the character of the legislature, forbid it. I trust that in no event will an attempt be made to seduce the volunteers to enlist, because such an attempt would be a violation of the terms upon which they became volunteers: and I am pretty sure that no man has entered into those associations, under the idea that he was at any time to be transferred to a regular regiment; and, from the rank in life which the generality of the volunteers hold, any effort to recruit the army from among them would be attended with very inconsiderable success, if any. Indeed, I do not at all like the idea, as it is inconsistent with the nature of the engagements as they understood it upon entering into the volunteer corps. Whatever I may think of the insti

tution, I wish the members of it to be treated with the utmost respect and attention, as I most sincerely applaud the zeal by which they are actuated; but I can never persuade myself to believe that they are ever likely to answer the expectations of the right hon. gent. under the gallery, even if they were to be drilled 50 days in the year, as the right hon. gent. desired. In what time, I would ask, considering the ordinary habits of the volunteer corps, would they be capable of filling the place which the right hon. gent. would assign them? Certainly not in the next year or the following. Would it be prudent to place the safety of the country under the protection, at any time of war, of a body of volunteers not subject to martial law, nor inured to military discipline? If the rumour of invasion, which, by the by, I never thought so likely to be attempted, and if attempted not so practicable as most people seem to imagine, were to blow over, would the right hon. gent. under the gallery, or any other gentleman, venture to advise the sending of our regular army on any foreign expedition, and depend entirely on the volunteers for our safety against any attack of the enemy on our coast? If in such a case invasion should be actually undertaken, there would, I think, be serious ground for apprehension and alarm. From these considerations I deduce an opinion correspondent to that of the right hon gent. on the same bench with me, that the machinery of the volunteer system is bad; and that the present system is never likely to produce such a force, even with the aid of that right hon. gentletleman's (Mr. Pitt) utmost ability, as he professes to entertain a hope of. I am persuaded that the volunteers will not answer to act with the regular army in the field of battle, opposed to the enemy's troops, as they are at present constructed, nor to form the ground work of such a force as the right hon. gent. under the gallery has alluded to. I should have no objection to a general ar mament of the people under any circumstances when the country was in danger. But the volunteers, in the light which I view them, cannot be considered as an arming of the people. If they are to be so considered they are in numbers quite too weak; but if they are to be regarded as the foundation of a future army, as the right hon. gent, under the gallery has hinted, they are too large. For the latter purpose 400,000 men would be too much, and for the former one million of men would not be very considerable. Therefore, in either case, the volunteer system is unsuitable. It struck me, as somewhat strange,

in the noble lord's description of the forces of the country, that he never stated the precise amount of the regular army, as contradistinguished to the militia. Why this was not told, I cannot say; but no doubt it was not, because they were so numerous that they could not be counted. The volunteers seemed to be the favo mite subject of the noble lord's description, enumeration, and praise. No doubt the volunteers themselves are justly entitled to applause; but I must say, that the character of the country is not advane d by the frequent repetition of such applause. What, was the House to feel so much elated as if it were matter of wonder that when the country was declared in danger, the people of England were emulous to step forward and defend their homes against a French invader? In such a crisis they had stood forth as was to be expected, and in such numbers that ministers thought proper to resist their increase, and yet they were not likely to afford all the utility of which, otherwise constituted, they would have been capible; what a melancholy reflection! Among the other objections of the right hon. gent, on the same bench with me, is that which he professed to the manner of the volunteer clothing, an objection of which I also approve; and by those who have commented upon it, I think it has been put on a very wrong footing. I do not like giving men red coats merely to give them the appearance of soldiers, without the material ingredients necessary to form such characters. When I hear ministers talking of the propriety of dressing the volunteers in military uniforms, I ask, do they mean merely that the French troops should take them for soldiers? As masked batteries are used in war, perhaps you mean to fight the French in masquerade? or do you mean to hold out the volunteers as mere targets to be fired at? You might make use of them in various other ways, but you destroy their utility by attempting to make them soldiers. No man will think me apt to favour any system opposite to civil liberty; but yet I cannot help saying, that nothing appears to me more ab surd than the idea of making men effective soldiers for the resistance or attack of an effective regular army, without martial law or military discipline. By this project of the volunteers you send men to impede the movements of your regular force, which men might be employed most usefully to annoy the enemy in various ways, to protect the villages, in fact, by other means to defend the invaded against the invader; but the battle in the field with the troops of the invader must be fought by your regular army;

and victory to our arms, in such a contest will, I hope and trust, ever be the result. The prospect of victory to us, indeed, is strengthened by the various advantages which always present themselves to the invaded country. Upon these advantages, independently of the gallantry of our regalar troops, we reckon with just grounds of confidence, if we could look to the active assistance of an armed peasantry; but where are they to be found-they are absorbed in the volunteers! What I would wish is, to see all men in their proper places, the soldier in the army, the peasant in the country, and the people throughout in that situation where they could be employed each in his proper de. partment. It may be observed, that it is inconsistent in me, who last year approved of the reduction of the regular army, now to call for its increase; but the times, it is to be recollected, are somewhat different; we were last year at peace, and whether I may be considered "nature's fool," or the Chancellor of the Exchequer's, 1 certainly did think that peace would continue; and at the commencement of the war, I stated very fully the reasons why, I thought it might with proper management, and ought to be preserved; but if I was "nature's fool" in thinking the peace of Amiens likely to continue, the Chancellor of the Exchequer certainly took a great deal of pains, gave many flattering descriptions, and used all the arguments in his power to confirm me in my folly. Under the influence, therefore, of that folly, I recommended the decrease of our armed force at the commencement of the last session--With the hope expressed by the right hon. gent, under the gallery, I heartily join, that we shall not long confine ourselves to mere defensive war; that so soon as circumstances favour the project, we shall proceed upon vigorous offensive war; that we shall not always limit our glory to the more security of our own country; and that we shall not suffer ourselves, according to the old observation, to be swallowed up in the channel." But what description of offensive operations does the right hon. gent. deem practicable with the present construction of our armed force? If ever the invasion of Ireland were attempted by the enemy, and that they actualty landed a considerable for e, would he feel it safe to send any material proportion of our regular army to that contry, leaving England to the defence of the Volunteers? I for myself should deprecate any such idea. I beg to be understood distinctly as meaning no disrespect whatever, in what I have observed, to the individuals who compose the Volunteer Corps, who are

deserving, I am confident, of all the regard

I feel for their motives. I nevertheless think, that no abilities can possibly turn the Volunteer Corps into a regular army. Now we recommend another mode: augment your regular army. In other cases, when men are compelled to do something in haste, they don't reason like our Ministers. When you want something done in a hurry, you don't set about teaching the whole art or science. If you wanted to take a servant with you abroad, and would teach him a few words of a foreign language, that he might know how to order your supper, or take care of your horses, or enquire his way-suppose it was the Latin language-would you give him two or three ordinary words, such as bread, beer, &c. or send him to Eton to learn his propria que maribus? Those who know me, know that I have a very great respect for the study of Grammar, and that is certainly the way to make a man a scholar, though not to teach him readily to do a few necessary things. Now, what are you doing? What is the first thing for a soldier? Why to aim and fire. But you are tutoring men into all the punctilios of the parade, making them hold up their bodies and turn out their toes, all proper enough when there is time for it. Remember, that if the Volunteers are wanted in Dec. or Jan. so they were in Aug. or Sept. But, in September, when we were told to expect the French, how many of them had never fired a gun (the case with great numbers of the English peasantry, &c.) and still fewer knew how to clean it, and to take care of it? That was your case then. But if Ministers were so miserably ill prepared in Aug. last, I confess I am obliged to suspect they now are proportionably so. You have been teaching the Volunteers a variety of matters that come of the best writers on military affairs (Marshal Saxe for example) consider as trifles-evoJutions which had better be avoided in action. We say the Volunteers compose a main part of our national defence, and that they consist of the greater part of the young and active men. Now I want this description of persons for two other purposes; first for the regular army, and secondly for the armed nation, not for a sort of half army, that you are to put on the top of a hill, to frighten the enemy if he should dare to land. An hon. friend of mine (Mr. Sheridan) at a late public meeting, did me the honour to compliment me as being a private in one of these Corps. No doubt his motive was kind in toasting my name as a private in the Chertsey Corps; but I am obliged to decline the honour he intended me, for this plain

reason, that I never was a private in that Corps; nor will I become one in any Corps, because I will not undertake a situation, the duties of which I am not competent to perform; my age disqualifies me for it; I could not endure the fatigues of a soldier's life; though, I must confess, I have scen many gentlemen worse looking than myself, parading in the utmost pomp of military array. It may be said that the influence of example ought to be considered, and probably, from that consideration, most of his Majesty's Ministers have become Volunteers. But, what kind of example are they likely to give? Why, if the French should invade this country, they would immediately desert; for they must either desert their offices or the Volunteer Corps, and it is easy to judge what choice thy would make. No doubt they would, previous to their desertion, apologise to the Corps they might belong to, that a necessary attendance at their ministerial duties obliged them to depart. And what would be the effect of such apologies on the different Corps? Why this, that it would be a precedent to justify the desertion of every other Volunteer, who could assign any plausible reason of pressing business, &c. I see no good example, nor any public spirit in such things. This vaunted influence of example, however, is quite of a piece with the theatrical, ostentatious foppery of the Volunteer system, which seems only St for nothing but to be put on the top of a hill to be looked at.-It is quite a different kind of thing when a gentleman puts himself at the head of any Corps, where he can be of use. For instance, the right hon. gent. who opened the debate (Mr. Windham), is, I find. a Volunteer Officer in his own county, where, from local circumstances, he probably may be of more use than any other person. or in any other way. As to the affair of the exemptions, it is the crudest thing I ever heard of. I thought I could see a great deal of regret in the Sec. of State's speech on that point. But his reason is truly curious. He says, Why did not you all tell me of it? It's all your own fault. You were all placed here to watch me, and you said nothing.' A great number of Volunteers, as has been observed, were enrolled without any exemption whatever. There were several parishes, where people entered into subscriptions to provide for the Army of Reserve. Sub titutes have risen to an enormous price, frequently to £50. Parishes cannot get them. Poor men, who never were Volunteers, who ca not afford it, are too old, or perhaps infirm, insure; by and by, comes another ballot, till the parish pays off its whole debt, as the

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case is in many parishes in the county where I live. As to the arms: the ordnance, it is said, had as many as could be expected. I am not quite of that opinion; it might have been so in former times, but in a modern view of the business, I say, with the foresight Ministers say they had of the designs of the enemy, it ought to have been better stored. They concluded their peace would not last; we, who were "Nature's fools" and mere idiots, could not know that. But did they provide for war? My credulity must be greater than they thought it, before I can bring myself to believe it. But did they think of a war with France without the threat of attempting an invasion? It seems hardly possible. It was, therefore, necessary to guard against it. I say that, in such case, they must have seen the necessity of providing more than 300,000 muskets. Why they should seem so disposed to boast of the state of the country, I don't know, unless it be that they are themselves really surprised at their own exertions, They have been quite astonished; and, looking round on one another, 'Oh,' say they, who could have thought it? We never could have imagined that we were capable of such exertions. Of the country it was impossible for them to think meanly: nor do I see why any man should be surprised or astonished to see Englishmen coming forward manfully to defend themselves. What they might think of themselves is another matter if they foresaw the danger, there could be no impediment to foreseeing the want of arms. do hope, that some things have lately happened to render that danger less. I say, that if Admiral Cornwallis could, during the week Parliament met, lay off Brest with his fleet, and effectually blockade that port, he has materially lessened the danger, and has gained laurels as great at most as ever were gained by a victory. The utmost degree of praise is due to that gallant Commander for his skill and bravery in this most important affair, which I think of the highest consequence to the Country. I certainly however by no means say, that on that account we ought to relax at all in our defensive preparations. But here perhaps I may be biassed. Always thinking an invasion attended with many difficulties, and particularly under these circumstances, but deeming it equally necessary to be fully on our guard against it; I say, I may be biassed, but I can't help saying, go on in your preparations, but let them be such as may be most speedily converted into the means of offensive warfare, and if I gave an additional vote to night, it should be to the regular army.-Now, Sir,

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having stated my difficulties as to the converting the Volunteer Corps into a foundation for the regular army, I wish to say a word as to their duration, more particularly as the Noble Lord spoke of them as not being intended for temporary purposes. Now suppose, whether justly or unjustly, the war should become, in any respect, unpopular, if you should exact from the Volunteers nothing but what is perfectly compatible with their other necessary pursuits of life, they will go on very well; but I think, that on the petty pay allowed them, should certain circumstances, unforeseen at present, arise, the keeping of them up, on their present footing, may not be impossible, but I will say improbable. The Noble Lord talked of making us a military nation. I do not see the maiter exactly in the same light with him; but I have no objection to see the nation more military in its character even in time of peace, so far as that every class of persons should be better skilled in the use of arms; peasants, artizans, and commercial men, &c. This would be of considerable advantage to the country. But we are asked, how else are the people to be employed in the public service? Why, the Sec. at War says, he is not a military man. Modesty is a good quality. But I humbly think, that at a time when the country is threatened with a formidable invasion, and we are raising such immense forces to oppose it, the Sec. at War should be somewhat of a military man. But he refers to General Officers. Every General Officer, I think, will tell him, that the best way of arming the people, is by training them to their proper uses. I cannot help repeating the opinion which I gave last session, and upon which a motion was ineffectually made in this House; namely, that there should be a responsible military authority, to which the Parliament and the people might look for the whole conduct of the arnry department. I have great personal respect for H. R. H. the Conimander in Chief, but I am persuaded, from my personal knowledge of his character, that he would not be pleased with the flattery, that he is himself capable of the very difficult task of governing this department. It requires, above all, that the responsibility should be clear and positive. I may be allowed to say, that there is an obstacle in his high birth to the responsibility which belongs to his situation. There is a delicacy in questioning the measures of a personage of his illustrious rank, which deters men in general from the duty of calling him to account. It is not too much to say, that all the arrangements ofthe mili