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HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 30th July, 1875.

The House met at Two of the clock.

MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee

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- MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.-Class IV. EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART. PUBLIC BILLS - First Reading-Statute Law Revision [278.] Second Reading-Unseaworthy Ships [281]; Expiring Laws Continuance [262]; Ecclesiastical Commission Act Amendment [266]. Committee Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1867, Amendment (re-comm.) [230]—R.P.; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Con

firmation (Abingdon, Barnsley, &c.) (recomm.)* [241]—R.P.

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Committee - Report - Sanitary Law (Dublin) Amendment [268]; Copyright of Designs [270].

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COUNTY COURTS-IMPRISONMENT

part of the Question, that I would make further inquiries as to the grounds upon which Mr. Baron Huddleston discharged Smallbones from prison; on the contrary, I distinctly informed the House on Monday last what those grounds were, as communicated to me by the learned Judge, and added that I, of course, accepted his statement, though it contradicted the information which had been given to me, and I expressed my regret that I should have been misinformed. stated would be made, was an inquiry The only inquiry which I into the cause of the inaccuracy of the information which had been afforded to me as to the proceedings before the Judge in Chambers; that was an inquiry based upon the accuracy of the statement of the learned Judge and the inaccuracy of the information supplied to me. I must, therefore, answer the first and second parts of the Question of the hon. Member by stating that I have not made any such inquiries as those sug

FOR DEBT-CASE OF WILLIAM SMALL- gested by him. As regards the third

BONES.-QUESTION.

MR. CHARLES LEWIS asked Mr. Attorney General, Whether he has been enabled to make the further inquiries he promised as to the grounds upon which Mr. Baron Huddleston discharged from custody William Smallbones, who was illegally imprisoned for eight months under the order of the County Court Judge at Farnham; whether the result of such inquiries has not been to confirm the statement of the learned Baron made in his letter to the Attorney General of the 24th of July, communicated to the House on the 26th; and, whether he will state to the House on whose authority and information it was that the Law Department of the Treasury communicated to the Attorney General the statement read by him on the 22nd instant, which the learned Baron declared to be absolutely untrue" so far as he is concerned?

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part of the Question, I can only state that I have not the means myself of making any sufficient investigation into matters such as those referred to in his Question; that I can only prosecute such inquiries by means of others; and that, even had I the means, I have not, at this period of the year, the time at my disposal necessary for such a purpose. Under these circumstances, the only information of which I am possessed having been hastily acquired, I do not think that I should be exercising a wise discretion were I to make any statement to the House upon the subject.

MR. CHARLES LEWIS gave Notice that as the question related to the liberty of the subject, he would call attention to the case on going into Committee of Supply.

PERU-THE CREW OF THE "TALISMAN."-QUESTION.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sir, I much regret that the hon. Member for DR. C. CAMERON asked the Under Derry should have thought it consistent Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with his duty again to bring the case of Whether the crew of the steamship William Smallbones under the conside-Talisman," shipped in Glasgow in ration of the House; and the more so as his Question is based upon an assumption, which he doubtless believes to be, but which is not, well-founded. I have never promised, as asserted in the first

May 1874, and arrested in November last by the Peruvian authorities at Quintereas for alleged complicity in the illegal landing of arms, have been tried and convicted of that offence, or whe

ther they are still detained in prison unconvicted; whether the statement purporting to be written by the second officer of the "Talisman," and published in "The Times" of the 26th instant, to the effect that the crew were all confined without other clothes than they brought with them when arrested, in a large underground cell, damp, badly ventilated, full of vermin, and devoid of the common requirements of decency and cleanliness, and in company with sixty of "the lowest class ruffians of the country," is justified by fact; and, whether it is true, as stated by the officer referred to, that the British Consul had taken no notice of three letters addressed to him by the imprisoned crew?

MR. BOURKE: Sir, down to our latest advices from Peru, June 10, the crew of the Talisman, who have been in prison since November last, had not been tried. That, we are told, is owing to the fact that the crew could not be put on their trial until the Courts had disposed of the case of the vessel. She had been condemned as a good prize, but as appeal had been made against the sentence the crew could not be tried pending the result of this appeal. With regard to the place of their confinement, the treatment they receive, and the position of their fellow-prisoners, our Consul at Lima has reported that he has several times visited the crew. The master was confined in a room apart from the rest of the prison with three other political prisoners, two of whom are of the rank of colonel. The crew were in the common prison, but as to their being in "company with sixty of the lowest class ruffians of the country," as stated in the Question, it appeared that they were confined with other unconvicted Peruvian prisoners, among whom are some captains and lieutenants in the army. At the request of the Consul some more mattresses had been ordered to be sent to the crew from the Talisman, and their food, for prison diet, appeared good and sufficient. The Consul was doing all he could to press on the trial of the crew, and seeing that they were receiving fair treatment in prison, and we have received no complaint from any quarter of his neglect of their interests, I am not aware that he took no notice of three letters addressed to him by them.

JUDICIAL STATISTICS OF SCOTLAND. QUESTION.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether there is any difficulty in giving similar information in the Judicial Statistics of Scotland to that contained in the Returns for England and Ireland as to the birthplaces and state of education of prisoners in Scotland?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, that if the right hon. Member would look this year at the official statistics for Scotland, pages 48 and 49, he would find his Question to some extent anticipated. The only difficulty was as to the birthplace; but if that information could be obtained in another year, he would take care that it should be given.

RULES OF MILITARY WARFARECONFERENCE AT ST. PETERSBURG.

QUESTION.

MR. BECKETT - DENISON asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If any intimation has been received of the intention of the Russian Government to renew their invitation to a Conference at St. Petersburg on the usages of warfare; and, if the views of Her Majesty's Government as to the undesirability of taking part in such Conference have undergone any change since the meeting of Parliament in February last?

MR. BOURKE: Sir, in answer to the first part of the Question of the hon. Gentleman, I have to state that no invitation has been given to Her Majesty's Government to attend any future Conference at St. Petersburg on the usages of war. With regard to the second part of the Question, I have to state that the views of Her Majesty's Government have undergone no change on that subject. They continue to entertain the same opinion already expressed in despatches which have been laid on the Table of the House.

TURKEY-CONSULAR TRIBUNALS.

QUESTION.

MR. SCOURFIELD (for Sir H. DRUMMOND WOLFF) asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government are taking

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Mines-Use of

{COMMONS}

Blasting Powder.

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any steps, in conjunction with other | Whether his attention has been called
European Powers and the Porte, to sub- to the case of Thomas Dwyer, who has
stitute for consular tribunals a more con- been confined in the Gaol of Roscommon
venient and uniform system of jurisdic- since the 24th June 1873, under a war-
tion over foreigners in Ottoman terri- rant of the Judge of the Court of Probate
tory?
in Dublin, for an alleged Contempt of
Court by the non-payment of costs given
against him in that Court; whether such
an imprisonment for upwards of two
years is legal, having regard to the Acts
for the abolition of imprisonment for
debt; and, whether the Executive Go-
vernment have taken or will take any
steps for the discharge of the said pri-
soner, who is still detained in custody?

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, the only instance in which the Government have agreed with other European Powers and the Porte to substitute other tribunals for those now in existence is in Egypt. Arrangements for this purpose are nearly completed. The French Assembly have not yet ratified their Convention with Egypt. A Correspondence has passed with regard to a reformed system in Tunis, but no progress had been made in that direction.

POST OFFICE-STOCKTON-ON-TEES.

QUESTION.

MR. DODDS asked the Postmaster General, Whether he is aware that, in the town of Stockton upon Tees, with a population of 40,000, the postal and telegraph business of the town, and a wide district adjacent, is conducted in a room only seven feet eight inches in height, the cubical contents of which are 7,980 feet; that in this room thirty-five clerks and other persons are frequently employed at one time, giving to each person an average of 228 cubic feet of space; that the room contains fifteen gas burners, and that, besides the persons employed in it, part of the space is constantly crowded with persons transacting business; and, whether he can hold out any hope that a speedy remedy will be applied, and more adequate accommodation afforded?

LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, he would admit that the present post office at Stockton was quite inadequate for the growing wants of the town. The Post Office authorities had long been endeavouring to find suitable premises for the purpose, or a site for the erection of a new building, but to the present moment all their endeavours had failed. No efforts, however, would be spared to bring the matter to a successful termination.

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IMPRISONMENT BY JUDGE OF PROBATE COURT-CASE OF THOMAS DWYER.-QUESTION.

MR. FRENCH (for the O'CONOR DON) asked Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland,

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PLUNKET): Sir, since the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) was good enough to postpone his Question from last Wednesday, I have communicated with the Judge of the Probate Court under whose order

the prisoner Dwyer was sent to Roscommon Gaol, and he has favoured me with the following information:

"Dwyer was defendant in a probate suit in him with costs. He was arrested for non-paywhich there was a verdict and a decree against ment of these costs under the provisions of the Probate Act, and it was my duty to make the order for his imprisonment, unless I was prevented by the operation of the Irish Act for the which was passed in 1872, and came into operaabolition of imprisonment for debt. That Act, tion on the 1st of January, 1873, forbids arrest for money payable in respect of a cause or suit arisen after the passing of the Act;' but in this case the cause of suit was complete on the 14th of June, 1872, and the Act did not pass until the

6th of the following August.”

Sir, I have no right to question, nor do I for a moment question, the complete propriety of the view thus taken by the very learned Judge, nor have the Executive Government any intention, or, indeed, any power, to interfere for the release of the prisoner; but I may say that, if I am rightly informed of the circumstances of his position, there is no hardship in the case, as he can at any time and without expense apply for his discharge under the 24th and 25th sections of the Irish Bankruptcy Act of

1872.

MINES-USE OF BLASTING POWDER.

QUESTION.

MR. MACDONALD asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If the Mines Inspectors have tendered to him their individual and collective

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opinions on the subject of using Blasting Powder in firing Mines; whether he is about to take any action on the Recommendations of the Reports; and, whether he will lay the Reports upon the

Table of the House?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, he had taken the opinions of the Mines Inspectors, individually and collectively, on the use of blasting powder in mines. The individual opinions were asked for and received as confidential communications; but, having received them, he thought it right that the Inspectors should be called together to consider the matter and make a collective Report, which was a formal document. He had no objection to lay it on the Table of the House, if the hon. Member would move for it. It had been in his hands but a very short time, and the Government were not prepared, without further consideration, to say whether they would take any action upon it.

SPAIN THE CIVIL WAR-BOMBARDMENT OF SPANISH VILLAGES.

QUESTION.

MR. O'CLERY asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government have received any official intelligence relative to the bombardment and destruction of several towns and villages on the Cantabrian coast of Spain by the naval forces of the Alfonsist Government, whereby, according to the reports in the newspapers, thousands of persons have been rendered homeless, and also of the devastation of the corn-producing districts of the north of Spain by the Alfonsist troops; and, whether Her Majesty's Government would make representations to the Government of Madrid, with a view of mitigating the sufferings of the noncombatant population?

MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, that Her Majesty's Government had received intelligence of the bombardment of certain villages on the Cantabrian coast and other villages by the Spanish steam frigate Vittoria. As to the statement of the hon. Gentleman, that thousands of persons were rendered homeless, he feared that such results must be expected in a country given up to the calamities of war. As at present advised, he did not think that any representation to the Government of Madrid

of the kind referred to in the second part of the hon. Gentleman's Question would have the desired effect.

WEST AFRICA-EXCHANGE OF TERRI.

TORY.-QUESTION.

MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN

asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether there is any truth in the report that an exchange of territory upon the West Coast of Africa between Great Britain and France is in process of negotiation ?

MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, a correspondence upon this subject has, as my right hon. Friend's own official recollections will, no doubt, recall to his mind, been in progress for a considerable time. I may, however, take this opportunity of stating that the reports which have recently appeared in the newspapers, and which have probably revived my right hon. Friend's interest in this question, are incorrect, and that no conclusion has been arrived at. I need hardly add that the feelings of all parties having a claim upon the consideration of the Government will be fully considered in any arrangement arrived at.

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THE TICHBORNE TRIAL.-QUESTION.

MR. WHALLEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to the Tichborne trial, Whether, during the progress of the trial a printed notice issued by the Government in Australia was not sent to the Solicitor of the Treasury and exhibited in his office, whereby a reward of £1,000 was offered for the apprehension of Arthur Orton on a charge of murder; and also another like paper offering a reward of £300 on a charge of horse stealing; whether a detective officer, to whom the person of Arthur

Orton was well known, was not sent to England by the authorities in Australia for the purpose of identifying him; and, whether such officer did not make known to the authorities here that the defendant was not Arthur Orton, but that he was a person known to him in Australia as Thomas Castro ?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, that he had only just time since he saw the Question of the hon. Member on the Notice Paper to consult the present Solicitor to the Treasury, who was Assistant Solicitor during the Tichborne trial, but who took the principal share in conducting the business under Mr. Gray, who died some time ago. He could, therefore, do nothing more than repeat the answer he had received. Mr. Stephenson, the present Solicitor, said he was quite convinced that if Mr. Gray had received any such notice as that referred to in the Question he would have sent it to him; but he never saw or heard of any notice of the kind, nor was such a notice, or any notice to that effect, exhibited in the Treasury Solicitor's office. Mr. Stephenson knew nothing of a detective having been sent over to this country by the authorities of Australia; and if such an officer made known to the authorities here that the Claimant was not Arthur Orton, he (Mr. Stephenson) never heard of such an occurrence, and he did not believe that the late Mr. Gray or any other person had. If he (Mr. Cross) could make further inquiries on the point through the police, he should be happy to do so. MR. WHALLEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If he (Mr. Whalley) furnished him with certain affidavits, for he had not placed the Question on the Paper without satisfying himself as to the facts and the bona fides of his information-would the right hon. Gentleman cause inquiry to be made into the truth of the allegations contained in his Question?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS made no reply.

MR. WHALLEY then said he would postpone until Monday next the following Question, of which he had given Notice:-Whether the Secretary to the Treasury would lay upon the Table of the House a further Return of the expenditure in the Tichborne Case completed up the present time, and when; and whether the Return already made,

or which may be so made, will include the services or the expenses incurred by the detective police officers who were specially employed in relation to this prosecution?

BREACH OF ORDER-MR. PLIMSOLL
AND MR. BATES.

QUESTION. PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

MR. BATES: I wish, Sir, to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, If the Government will assent to the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the allegations of the honourable junior Member for Derby regarding my conduct as a shipowner?

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, it is my wish and it is my duty whenever the conduct of a Member of this House, wherever he may sit, is impugned in a matter of personal honour, to assist in every way I possibly can, and to give him an opportunity to vindicate that conduct. I must confess myself I do not think that on the present occasion the Question of my hon. Friend was necessary. There was no doubt-though I refer with unaffected pain to recent occurrences-that a Member of this House, under circumstances of great excitement, committed a great and terrible indiscretion in charging Members of this House even criminally. But that Member has made to the House, which he offended, and to you, Sir, whose reprimand he appeared in his place, if necessary, to receive, what I consider, and the House and you considered, an ample and complete apology. I believe that the words of that Member, and the expression of contrition which he used with respect to having violated the Orders of this House, entirely and principally cover that outrage upon those Orders which was committed by referring by name to Members of this House as connected with circumstances so painful and disgraceful. My hon. Friend who has appealed to me by this Question had an opportunity of immediately vindicating himself in a full House; and I think he did it in a proper and dignified manner. He made this statement-that it was his great misfortune, in the course of three years, to have lost, I think he said, five ships. He stated to the House that they were ships of the highest quality; that they were registered as ships of the highest quality; that they were iron ships; and

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