Page images
PDF
EPUB

done than that any particular person or party should have the credit of it. No one could deny that the hon. Member, by the energy and ability with which he had pressed this matter for some years upon the public, had done much to bring it into the prominence which it now occupied; and whatever might be the ultimate legislation on the subject, and by whomsoever the Bill might have been framed, the name of the hon. Gentleman would be inseparably associated with that legislation. But it must be remembered that this was a question upon which there was no real difference of opinion as to the objects to be attained, and, moreover, that whatever

subject to the love of man in man's heart, it was not to be forgotten that it was a question involving also the safety of millions of property. In conclusion, he would ask the House to put down their foot firmly upon any attempt to kill the proposals of the Government by talking against time. [Ministerial Cheers. The shipowners had known, more or less, that the state of things he had attempted to describe had all the while existed, but they had never opened their mouths to ask for any legislation on the subject. No sooner, however, was legislation attempted-he spoke in general terms than they invariably talked the remedial proposals to death, with the view of ob-had been the exertions and services of structing any reform. ["No, no!"] Was not that true? ["No, no!"] He said, and maintained, that it was true; but he would not enlarge upon the point, for the cheer which had been raised satisfied him that the House was in no temper to tolerate conduct of that kind. He would say no more, but merely thank the House for the attention with which they had listened to him.

the hon. Member for Derby, he had neither been the only one, nor the first who had laboured in the same cause. The hon. Member had himself recalled to their memory the course of inquiry and legislation on this matter which had distinguished the last 30 or 40 years, and while he was referring to the Committee of 1843, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not help remembering that his first official work had been to prepare an analysis of Reports of the evidence placed before that Committee, for the use of his right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich, who was at the time Vice President of the Board of Trade. He could well remember also the interest which the Re

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER observed that whatever might already have been the merits of the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Plimsoll) in the eyes of his countrymen, it might fairly be said that he had added to his claims upon their gratitude by the manner in which he had conducted himself, not only in his speech on the present occa-port of that Committee excited. The sion, but throughout the whole of the discussions in the course of the Session on the subject of Merchant Shipping. Instead of striving to thrust himself or his own measure before the notice of the House and occupying time unnecessarily by an exposition of his views, he had ever been ready, when he could, to give way to the proposals of others, so that, whether it was by one hand or by another, the great object to which he had devoted himself might be forwarded. The hon. Member was deserving of gratitude, not only for the services he had rendered in connection with the proposals before the House, but also for the example he had set of the spirit in which they ought all to proceed, and of the truth which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought ought to be impressed upon the minds of all public men-that they should all be more anxious that the right thing should be

hon. Gentleman was quite right in saying that the evidence brought forward on that occasion produced a great impression, and that it led to legislation. It led to a valuable Report, and it led to legislation founded on that Report. Indeed, almost, if not quite, every recommendation of that Committee was ultimately adopted, and now formed part of the legislation of this country. Examinations of masters and mates, a new system of inquiry into losses by wreck, the establishment of sailors' homes-these and a large number of other matters which were then brought for the first time under the notice of Parliament had been carried into effect. From time to time since then there had been improvements made by legislation in the means of preserving life at sea, and in the condition of the Merchant Shipping generally. The question of overloading, which so very much inte

238

rested the hon. Member for Derby, had surveyed, which were in a sound condibeen frequently under consideration, tion, and which either were classed or and his noble Friend (Lord Hampton), stood so high that if classed they would then a Member of that House, took a rank among the very best. There was, very deep interest in it. If he mistook he repeated, a very large proportion of not, the hon. Member for Derby and human life which was necessarily exLord Hampton had been in communica- posed to danger at sea, and much loss of tion on this subject at a very early date. life unfortunately occurred from causes The subject was, as he had said, one on with which, as he had said, legislation which they were all agreed, and their was powerless to deal. But, neverthedesire was to provide proper remedies. less, there were matters with which They also admitted that there did exist legislation had dealt, and might deal, -in spite of all that had been done-in and no doubt the actual condition spite of all their exertions, Royal Com- of ships, the soundness of their mamissions, and Acts of Parliament-in terials, the correctness of their conspite also of all the efforts of the admi-struction, and the circumstances in which nistrative Departments-he said they they were allowed to put to sea in regard admitted that there did exist many evils to equipment, loading, &c., were points which it was most desirable they should which Parliament might very properly attempt to remedy. He would not go take up. But deal with them how they into questions of statistics. He had might-deal with them by any system heard statements-which, perhaps, were of rules which might be embodied in an somewhat exaggerated-as to the loss of Act of Parliament, or by any powers life which occurred. Very wide figures which might be entrusted to a Departhad been mentioned, and it might be ment-they might depend upon it that possible to show that they were not at something more was necessary in order all accurate. But the fact was he had to meet the difficulties of each and every lived too long among statistics to attach case. the value to them which some people an Act of Parliament, they would leave If they relied upon the words of were disposed to do, and whether the themselves open to very great mischiefs figure was 5,000 or 6,000, or whether it which they might think they had prewas 2,000-which was, perhaps, the vented, but which they would not be more accurate calculation-if there was able to prevent. The only way in which any considerable number of our fellow- they could really hope to deal effectually subjects who lost their lives from causes with these matters was by evoking the which it was in the power of Parliament aid of the owners of ships and those to prevent, it was their duty to exert who had the management and control of themselves to find a remedy to save them. No doubt, they must be watched those lives, no matter what the numbers by a proper Department, and whatever might be, and not to relax their efforts Parliament could advantageously do by till they had done whatever it was pos- means of legislation they ought to do; sible for them to do. They had to con- but whatever they did, they must take sider, of course, how far the causes which undoubtedly did conduce to this the persons to whom he had referred. care not to weaken the responsibility of melancholy state of things were movable, and how far, especially, they the Bill which was introduced at the re- Now, the object of the Government in were removable by legislation. A very beginning of the present Session was to large proportion of the loss of life at improve the provisions of the law for sea arose, as they were well aware, from the purpose of enforcing the responsicauses which could not be touched by bility of the shipowners, and for the any legislation of the character proposed purpose of aiding in the work which by the hon. Member or by any of the they did. But when they came to deal Amendments which had been put on the with a question of this sort it was found Paper with reference to the present Bill. to be very complicated and difficult. It They talked of the classification of ships, required to be approached with ample of the survey of ships, of overloading, knowledge-it required to be approached of grain cargoes in bulk, and so forth; with temper, with time, and with patience. but a very large proportion of the lives In this, above all other questions, time that were lost were the lives of passengers must be given for a full development of conveyed in ships which had been well the views of all persons concerned, and

for a fair representation of the conse- | long as we attempted to deal with this quences which must result from the pro- matter provisionally, and only by legisposed legislation. No doubt, it had lation, we were trying to regulate a been a great advantage to the Govern- great business by discussions in this ment in framing the Bill to have the House conducted by persons, a very small assistance of the valuable Report of the minority of whom alone had a practical Royal Commission by which this subject acquaintance with the subject-persons had been considered. But no Report of who could not avoid being influenced by a Royal Commission could take the place feelings most honourable, most humane, of discussions in Parliament. A Report and most creditable, but which interof a Royal Commission could not be fered with calmness of judgment, and challenged in the same way as the clauses who might be disposed to look with susof a Bill, which put the recommenda- picion upon objections taken by those tions into a practical shape, which were who understood the subject, as if they examined by all the persons whom they were prompted by interested motives in affected, and in discussing which it raising them, but who, at the same might appear that unexpected conse- time, might be perfectly incapable of quences would flow from the legislation, doing anything wrong. It was exceedand that difficulties not before appre-ingly probable that in such a case Parciated had to be overcome. He was bound to say-speaking entirely from the impression made upon his own mind -that the difficulties of the task had grown on him as the discussion of the subject proceeded in the House. And not only was that so, but also the necessity was brought home to him of going a little further in one particular direction than the Bill of the Government proposed to do. That particular direction in which he saw that discussion showed they would have to proceed in the future was in the direction of dealing with the great question of insurance. We might do what we would in the way of enforcing penalties, but by legislation, depend upon it, we should not get at the motives of the shipowners-at the motives of those who were sometimes exposed to temptations, though sometimes they might have acted from carelessness. The aim of Parliament, therefore, should be in every possible way to strengthen the interest of shipowners in taking care of their ships and their seamen. Of course, the shipowners of England were like the rest of their countrymen, men of high feeling and generous impulses, and as a body were as anxious as men could be for the welfare and safety of the crews whom it was their pride to have at their command. But, at the same time, we knew they were exposed to great temptations in times of pressure, and it was only too possible from time to time there might be found among them "black sheep," as they had been called the other day-men who brought disgrace on their occupation. But it should be borne in mind that as

liament might be betrayed into laying
down regulations not only of an insuffi-
cient character, but the very insufficiency
of which might lead to mischief in
another direction. It should be remem-
bered that this was a business carried on
in keen competition with foreigners; a
business of the highest national interest
and importance; and a business in
which, if a man knew he was stopped
from doing something which he believed
he might safely have done, he would be
under a great temptation to do some-
thing else which he knew to be dan-
gerous, but which Parliament had not yet
found out, so as by law to prohibit. If, for
instance, Parliament said, "Such shall be
the mode of loading," but had omitted to
notice something else which it could not be
expected to find out, would not the ship-
owner naturally say "Oh, if Parlia-
ment has not found out this, there is
less objection to my doing it; for I am
free to do what I know to be for my own
interest?" Therefore, the real object
of Parliament should be, if possible, to
get at the motive of the shipowner,
endeavouring to reach him through that,
and supplementing it by such regula-
tions as might seem fit. But that was a
task of the greatest delicacy and diffi-
culty, and it was one which ought not to
be undertaken at the fag-end of a Ses-
sion with a jaded House. The more
ready people were to make sacrifices of
their time-and the House would always
be anxious to make such sacrifices-the
more fear there was of being betrayed
into something dangerous from the very
anxiety and precipitancy by which they
were actuated.
He would say, then, he

was convinced, though the Government | able to do a great deal of good work. might be exposed to taunts and criti- They could say that the men employed cisms, that, upon the whole, under the under that Act had made comparatively circumstances in which they found them- few mistakes, for his right hon. Friend selves, they exercised a wise discretion the President of the Board of Trade had -at all events an honest discretion-in stated that out of 558 merchant ships endeavouring to put off this delicate, which were stopped, 515 were found to difficult, and important legislation to the be stopped rightly, while there were next Session with the firm determination others which were still in question, and to take it up in the proper spirit at the with regard to some 50 or 60 stopped very beginning of the Session. But the for being improperly loaded, not one immediate question was with reference had been shown to have been stopped to the Bill before the House, and on improperly. Therefore, the Government that subject he could only say it was a did say with some confidence that they Bill which proposed to meet what might would entrust such men as they could be called an exigency, and as far as pos- find to carry on this business with such sible to provide for objects which had to instructions and superintendence as the be provided for at the present moment. Government could afford. But it was It was, after all, a Bill which did not go not only to the staff of the Board of further in principle than the Acts which Trade at present that they would look; Parliament passed a year or two ago, they would also look to others for aid. especially the Act of 1873. It followed And here he might state that they had the lines of the Act of 1873 which hon. received from Lloyd's assurances of the Gentlemen opposite had the credit of most encouraging character; that they passing, and which he believed to be a were ready to place their services at the most valuable Act. It had been shown disposal of the Government, and give by the experience of the last year or what assistance they could in carrying two to be most effective in stopping some the Act into effect. When the House kinds of mischief, and it might be more got into Committee it might be necesso as time went on, should it be taken sary to consider whether any provisions as the basis of legislation for giving should be made in order to guard against greater powers to the officers of the possible abuses of the power proposed Board of Trade. It might be said that to be given to the crew of objecting in this was entrusting great powers to irre- certain cases to go to sea. Nobody sponsible and untried men. His right wished to encourage anything in the hon. Friend when he announced that he nature of vexatious or frivolous comwould bring in this Bill made an apology plaints. Under the present law, that to the House for asking for so much was a difficulty which would have to be power. He said his reason for asking met; and if it was thought necessary to for a temporary measure only was that introduce any words to meet the case of they were going to ask for powers which frivolous and vexatious complaints, the Parliament might have refused to grant Government would be ready to deal with to them in perpetuity. The Government the matter. With regard to other points, admitted that they were assuming a he felt quite sure that the spirit which very great responsibility, and that the had animated the House in the discusPresident of the Board of Trade and sion which had been held would still his staff were taking on themselves a prevail. There was another subject on most difficult and important duty. But which he wished to make a remark. The they trusted to the indulgence of Par- Bill of the Government was confined to liament and of the country and to the an important, but very narrow object. assistance of those who were able to aid It related only to the power to stop unthem in this task which they had thought seaworthy ships going out of this counit right to undertake. If the Govern- try. Still, that went a good way, bement were asked how far those who cause by the term "unseaworthy ships might be employed would be competent they did not mean ships only which had for the duty to be entrusted to them, leaks or were of very bad materials; they might, at all events, point to the the words would apply to cases of oversuccess which had so far attended the loading or improper loading. Thereworking of the Act of 1873, and to the fore, in respect to deck cargoes, as fact that the men employed had been regarded ships going out from this

[ocr errors]

country, the Board of Trade would have | difference. There were the questions of ample power to exercise all the authority deck cargoes and grain in bulk. As to necessary. But, undoubtedly, there was those matters it would be premature at another side to the question upon which that present moment to express the final stress had been laid and upon which the views of the Government upon proposals Bill did not touch, but which the hon. which might be made; but this he was Member for Pembroke (Mr. E. J. Reed) prepared to say on behalf of the Governproposed to deal with. He alluded to ment, that they considered, looking to the questions of deck load and carriage the importance of those questions, the of grain in bulk, the question of load interest which they had excited, and the line, survey, and other points. There manner in which the hon. Member for was also the question of the imprison- Derby had conducted his campaign in ment of seamen. Now, he proposed to the matter, that it would be in accorddistinguish between those questions. ance with the feelings of the House and Some of them related to matters which just to the hon. Member, while it would would involve the House in long discus- not be disadvantageous generally, that sions on very intricate subjects, which, they should give a fair opportunity for in his opinion, would inevitably affect the discussion of those portions of the the progress of the measure. He would question. Unless they assented to some join, if he might venture to say so, his part of the Instruction proposed, the appeal to that of the hon. Member for hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. E. J. Derby that they should conduct their Reed) would be precluded in Committee discussions on this Bill in such a manner from submitting his clauses, and as they as to secure that that which they were de- did not desire to preclude those consideratermined on passing should pass quickly. tions they would be prepared to admit Therefore he would say, on the part of the an Instruction which would allow clauses Government, that they would deprecate upon those points of deck cargoes and the introduction into this measure of pro- grain in bulk to be discussed, excluding visions which would be likely to lead to on the other hand questions of load line questions of difficulty and complication. and survey, and provisions with regard If the door were opened to the questions to the imprisonment of seamen. But to raised by the notices, it would be diffi- avoid misconception of the views of the cult to close it against other debatable Government he must add that they were questions. Amongst those questions not prepared off-hand to adopt the sugwas that of the load line, and without gestions of the hon. Member for Pempronouncing an opinion, for he did not broke. Deck cargoes were a subject of feel himself competent to do so, as to the anxious consideration at the time to propriety of attempting to fix a load which the hon. Member for Derby had line, it was one which would lead to long referred, and the painful Report from discussions on points of very great diffi- which extracts had been read was then culty, and one which he should be ex- before Parliament; and it had ever since ceedingly sorry to see introduced into been a question which had from time to the question of the Bill upon the present time attracted public attention. occasion. He observed that, in reality, could not at that moment remember upon what was proposed would take the shape what ground the repeal of the Act took of leaving it to the discretion of some place in 1854; but his impression was Commission or public Department to fix a that the provisions were repealed beload line, and when they looked at the cause they were found to be unworkable. proposals that were made, at their diver- The hon. Member for Derby said prosity, at the fact that the hon. Member visions had been made which had for Derby did not propose that his Bill checked, and almost extinguished, the should take effect before the 1st of abuse of grain cargoes in the Atlantic January next, and at all the circum- trade, and he said we ought to legislate stances, he thought there would be a in the same direction, because those progeneral concurrence of opinion on the visions had been attended with such part of a majority of the House that it excellent results. But did not hon. would be unwise to complicate their pro- Members at once perceive the difference ceedings by introducing the load line between the two cases? The legislation question. With regard to other ques- to which the hon. Member alluded was tions he would admit there was some adopted at the port of export and by the

He

« PreviousContinue »