country of export; and it was the action | sired was that the question should be as of the exporting country which must be fairly, as fully, and as frankly discussed called into operation in order to deal as possible. They were prepared to give with those evils. Nothing could be more their best energies and their best time to creditable than the course that had the consideration of it; and from the been taken in the matter by the Canadian feeling of the House he thought they Government and the great body of under- might close the Session with a measure writers of New York, and they had had which, though far from complete, would their reward, for he had just been told be really a step forward, and with that since those regulations as to ship- pledges given of a material character for ping grain in bulk came into force the a thorough dealing with, and a sifting of, rate of insurance on grain cargoes from the question in the next Session of ParSan Francisco to this country had fallen liament. There was only one other point from five guineas to 45s. a-ton, showing to which he wished to allude-he meant where action was taken by those who the Amendment of which Notice had were interested the truth of the obser- been given by the hon. and learned vation of the hon. Member for Derby, Member for Durham (Mr. Herschell). that proper legislation and provisions It was an Amendment which was strictly would add to the wealth of the country, germane to the purposes of the Bill, and as well as to the safety of our seamen. one which the Government would have But that action, as he had said, had been been willing to adopt if their Merchant taken by the exporting country; and Shipping Bill had proceeded. That they had a much more difficult and deli- Amendment made it penal for any shipcate task to deal with. How were they to owner or any other person to send, or regulate grain cargoes in this country? take part in sending, an unseaworthy They could not by legislation here en- ship to sea. They heard, in the Answer sure the adoption of proper regulations given to the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. for shipping grain at Odessa. [Mr. Evelyn Ashley) yesterday, that in one PLIMSOLL: Yes.] They might resolve respect the present law had been ineffecto punish those who had infringed such tive; and they believed that the Amendregulations when they came to this coun- ment of the hon. and learned Member try; but were they to touch the ship for Durham would meet the difficulty. which came across, or the ship that did At all events, they were prepared to not? If the ship came across with safety accept it; and they were grateful to the it would be found very hard and difficult hon. and learned Member for the assistto punish the man who had brought his ance he had lent them in the matter. ship over in safety; and if they sought to That was the position in which they punish the man whose ship had been lost, stood. They regretted exceedingly that where were they to get the evidence? they had not been able to go on with They would find that they were entering more complete legislation that year. But upon a most delicate and difficult task; he must say for himself that he should and although he did not say the subject prefer the matter standing over to next was not worthy of consideration, or that year to attempting to pass a complete they were not prepared to entertain and Bill and failing to do so; for if they discuss proposals which might be made passed a half-measure they would be by Gentlemen whose authority was very stopped from taking it up again, as it great in matters of the kind, he guarded would be held to have been disposed of himself and the Government against its in 1875. He believed they would come being supposed that they were insensible to the consideration of the matter next to the difficulties of the question, or that year with enlarged experience and inthey were prepared to adopt the pro- creased determination to grapple with posals which might be made. But they that difficult subject; and he believed would consider them. They did not that the small measure they were asking wish to shut them out. Unfortunately, the House to adopt on the present occahe did not hear the Notice given by the sion would be of use not only in averthon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Rath- ing some amount of misery and suffering bone), but he knew he had paid great during the coming winter, but as formattention to the subject, and his sugges- ing a foundation for future legislation. tion might afford some solution of the difficulty. All that the Government de

MR. A. PEEL said, he should not have taken any part in the debate had

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were convinced that a great loss of life | every shipmaster preparing his ship for Ships Bill. took place in consequence of it. Under the carriage of corn should give notice the Bill a large number of surveyors to the superintendent or port warden, would have to be appointed all over the who took care that the dividing planks country. They would be entrusted with were properly fitted, and satisfied himvery difficult and responsible duties, and self that the timber was properly if he referred to an ominous clause in seasoned and of a right description. the Act of 1872, which imposed a penalty These precautions were the result of a upon accepting bribes, it was only to strict law, and therefore, in legislating point to the danger of appointing as on this subject on the spur of the surveyors men with a small salary, who moment, and in regard to cargoes shipped would be open to temptation; while, on all over the world, they must not be too the other hand, they could only obtain hopeful that their legislation would be experienced surveyors by paying them all at once successful. No vessel leaving at a high rate for their services. thought that the Bill would, on the more than a certain quantity of grain He a Canadian port was allowed to have whole, be satisfactory, and while he ad- without a bulkhead. These facts were mitted that a much more stringent mea- ascertained and recorded by the harbour sure than the present one would harass master. an important and increasing trade, still be too sanguine in expecting the same The House, however, must not if the Government could see their way to results in legislating for cargoes shipped deal with deck loading in such a manner from ports all over the world. as would meet the difficulties during the difficult to regulate the loading of grain It was ensuing winter, he felt sure that they ships from Russia, Turkey, and Egypt, would still further satisfy the expecta- for example, because our laws were intions of the country. only proceed against those who had operative in foreign ports. We could broken the law when they arrived at home, and we could merely empower our Custom House officers to initiate a prosecution. If, however, a ship arrived safely there would be great reluctance on the part of a jury to convict, and the way towards exculpating the shipowner. success of the voyage would go a great The House should remember that this was a trade on which millions of money depended, and if any restrictions were placed upon the importation of grain with the view of regulating it, they would have as loud an outcry against the arrival of ships bearing the people's food being impeded and restrained as they now had against overloading. Allusion had frequently been made to the number of ships that had passed off Lloyd's Register, and which, it was said, were to be numbered by thousands. The hon. Member for Derby spoke of these ships as having lost their class, and as being unclassed and unseaworthy. these ships which passed off Lloyd's ReBut gister obtained classification from other many of societies; and it was to be presumed they only obtained such classification after calculation; but he had heard it said that survey. He would not vouch for the 60 per cent were registered in the books of the German Lloyd's and in other foreign registries, in every one of which

LORD ESLINGTON said, he must express his regret that in the calm and lucid statement of the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Plimsoll) he had not given utterance to some expression of regret for the language he had used with reference to the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. Bates.) late to mend," and a blow having been "It was never too inflicted which affected that hon. Gentleman's reputation in the most cruel manner, he would still hope that the hon. Member for Derby would offer some expression of his regret to the hon. Member for Plymouth. He wished to make a few remarks as to the course indicated by the Government, and to make some remarks as to the regulations which prevailed in the Dominion of Canada relative to the loading of grain ships, and the carrying of timber deck loads. He did not wish to check the impulse of the House to legislate in that direction, but the question was not without difficulty, and he would remind the House that at Montreal, the principal port for the exportation of grain, the conduct of the shipping was under the absolute superintendence of a gentleman who brought 50 years' experience to the work, and who had obtained an amount of public confidence which could hardly be expected to be given to the officers of the Board of Trade. The law there was that

what was most for the public benefit, but he regretted the very cautious and guarded speech which fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. ["No, no!"] The Government had introduced a Bill on this subject, which they saw fit to withdraw, and it was not till there had been a strong expression of public feeling that a temporary measure was introduced. He repeated that he had listened with regret to the exceedingly guarded nature of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. It was a speech well adapted to the introduction of a Bill at the commencement of a Session, but very badly adapted to the bringing in of a measure like that before the House at the end of a Session, and under the circumstances out of which it had arisen. When they were legislating on load lines and deck loads it was necessary to be very careful, but it was important to pass a measure which would cause satisfaction to the public. Notwithstanding all the guards with which the right hon. Gentleman had sur

classification could only be obtained by survey. When a demand was made for the strict survey of ships, it seemed to be taken for granted that the trade was in the hands of great firms. But the chief trainers of our seamen were the small shipowners, and if their enterprize were checked the monopoly of the trade would be thrown into the hands of the large shipowners. Small shipowners carried on the greater part of the coasting trade, and they were, perhaps, the most skilful navigators in the world. The small ships were oftened owned and navigated by a man with the help of his own sons and nephews. The trade formed a noble nursery of seamen, and, on the whole, it was safely conducted, and the House should be very careful not to interfere with it. He should be glad if the Government would insert some protecting words in the clause empowering onefourth of the crew to call for a survey and prevent a ship from going to sea. The ordinary crew of a vessel of 500 tons was eight men; and if two of them were foreigners, or chanced to be ill-rounded the subject, he (Mr. Reed) was conditioned men who came on board in a state of intoxication, it would be dangerous to give them the power of threatening the master with a survey. He was very glad to hear from his right hon. Friend that words would be inserted in the Bill to prevent frivolous attempts to obtain a survey of ships about to proceed to sea.

MR. E. J. REED said, he was sure that hon. Members speaking on this subject would bear in mind that it should be discussed in view of the fact that they were approaching the end of the Session, and without any attempt or desire to gain an advantage over the Government. It should be discussed in a tone entirely free from Party bias, and they should rather support the Government, and not put any unnecessary obstruction in their way. He feared that the object and wish of hon. Members on that side of the House were alike misunderstood by the Government. They had no desire to impose upon the Government any precise regulation or form of words, but only to induce them, in view of the feeling prevailing outside the House, to go that length which was necessary to give satisfaction to the country, because it was the duty of a Government to do all that was necessary to maintain public tranquillity. The Government were bound to consider

glad that the Government in Committee would consider the question of grain cargoes and deck cargoes, and if they introduced clauses which would strike at the root of the evil their proposals would meet universal concurrence on that side of the House, and he, for one, did not care a single straw whether the words of the necessary Amendments were those of the President of the Board of Trade or those of which he had given Notice. He had, however, heard with much regret that the Government were not willing to entertain the questions of survey and load line during the present Session. They were thus about to act as though their own measure did not virtually involve the settlement of a load line for ships, and the consideration of whether ships were or were not seaworthy. A moment's reflection, however, would show that the measure must imply a definition of load line, and the question of soundness or unsoundness. Could the President of the Board of Trade or any agent acting for him lay hold of a ship on the ground that she was overloaded without defining the line beyond which she ought not to have been loaded? Assuredly not; and, therefore, what they asked, in the interest of trade and commerce and of the shipowners themselves, was that the Government

should not wait till a particular ship was | sioners had said as to load line. They overloaded, but should, in the first in- said that undoubtedly the mere freestance, tell the shipowner the point board of a ship was not a proper thing beyond which he could not safely load by which to define its safety, and furthe vessel. That was a more business-ther, that the surplus buoyancy of a like and statesmanlike proceeding than ship above water was the proper thing, that the authorities should step in just at or as near to the proper thing as could the moment when a ship was on the be got at, to define the safety of a ship. point of being sent to sea. He trusted, Thus, for the very reason that the House therefore, that Her Majesty's Govern- would have adopted the term "surplus ment would by some form of words of buoyancy," it had been avoided in the their own, in Committee carry out that Report of the Committee, who had which was really involved in the Bill. finessed with small considerations and The same argument applied to the had avoided broad ones, thereby leadquestion of soundness. The President ing the Government into the greatest of the Board of Trade could not stop a difficulties. In fact, he believed the ship on the ground of unseaworthiness Government would have drawn a much without being in a position to show better Bill without than with the Report. that she was unseaworthy. Why, then, In his opinion, the facts to which he had should not that also be done long before referred demanded that the House should the vessel was ready to proceed to sea? step somewhat out of the usual course, There might be reasons against the and should see whether they could not course he suggested, but if there were, pass a measure which would give gethey were Departmental reasons-rea- neral satisfaction. His conviction was sons arising out of the labour and that there was such a disposition on the duty the measure would throw upon the Opposition side of the House as would Board of Trade. But that was no suffi- enable the Government, if they chose, cient argument against the proposal, to pass a measure that would be gebecause the Board of Trade existed for nerally approved. The hon. Member the purpose of performing those duties, for Hull (Mr. Norwood) had given a and he believed the right hon. Gentle- Notice of an Amendment with regard to man opposite the President of the Board the load line, which the Government of Trade would be the last man to shrink would not be justified in rejecting, which from the exercise of a public duty of went to the extent that the shipowner this nature. Although he had high should be compelled to mark upon the authority for believing that the remov- side of his vessel such load line as he ing of obstructions from the Committee thought would fairly represent the carrywas not necessary in this case, yet he ing power of his ship. He believed considered it only respectful to the Go- that if the Government accepted the vernment to omit from his Instruction Amendment of his hon. Friend so that all mention of deck cargoes and the the Courts might be able to deal with stowage of grain cargoes; but he would them, in the event of any accident ocbe false to the views he had expressed, curring, there would be no serious oppoand to the support he had received, if sition to it. What had caused public he did not raise the questions of survey agitation and resentment was, the fact and load line, and he should, therefore, that shipowners should go on overloadalter his Notice in that sense. The right ing beyond all sense of decency and prohon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the priety; and what was asked for was not Exchequer had alluded to the fact that a scientific definition of a load line, but the Government were guided in the the fixing of a line beyond which it matter by the Report of the Royal Com- would be opprobrious to go. He trusted missioners on Unseaworthy Ships. For that the Government would receive in his part, he believed, and firmly be- all sincerity what had fallen from hon. lieved, that that Report lay at the root Members in Opposition as to their being of the errors which the Government had a great disposition on their part to have committed. He gave them credit for concurrent action in this matter with a having followed strictly the recommen- view to the passing of a measure which dations of the Report, but to show that would give satisfaction to the country those recommendations were wrong, he and meet the objects which all had at had only to point to what the Commis- heart.