for special purposes, and were not ap- | benefit. He would now take the liberty plicable for thus supplementing the of calling the attention of the Chancellor grants of Parliament for Professorships. of the Exchequer to another fact. They He had a still further objection against had the previous night a long discussion such a scheme. This £400 would about a scientific grant for Scotland. have to be taken from a most useful He was quite willing to accept this £400 object. It was now applied, as they for Scotland, but let it be given to anall knew, to the small and poor pa- other purpose-let it be given to the rishes in the Highlands to supplement Meteorological Society. They had heard the sums paid as salaries to the teachers. much of the usefulness of that instituFor years it had been thus applied, tion, and why not give them a grant? and although perhaps not so useful This he put in solemn seriousness to the as the Dick bequest, it had done im- right hon. Gentleman; and further, he mense good by coming in aid of very would call upon him to remember this small salaries. He understood that Dr. fact-that no legislation could be good Bell's Trustees argued that in con- which was made for a community that did sequence of the passing of the Educa- not require it, and when the benefits of tion Act there would be plenty of money such legislation were merely problematito supply the education of the country. cal. Upon the Scotch Vote the previous Was that so? He thought he could evening only one Member from Scotland show exactly the opposite. They had followed the lead of the Government in heard that in some parishes in Scotland the division, while the two Scotch Memthe rate was 28. and 3s. in the pound, bers of the Government went out before while in others it had even reached 4s. the division took place in order to escape Therefore, he considered the money left the odium of voting with their Colleagues by this bequest was never more required in the Government. This afforded them a than at the present moment to supple- test of the opinion of the Scottish Memment the salaries of the teachers in the bers, and he was convinced that the propoor Highland parishes. Upon this posed grant would be far more apprepoint, he might read an extract from ciated if it was devoted, as he had said, the Report of the Endowed School Com- to the Meteorological Society. Again, missioners, who, referring to the Bell it would be well to remember how narTrust, said the Trust funds were des- rowly the Government escaped being tinedleft in a minority the previous night. ["No, no!"] It was yes, yes,' deducting the names of the Members of the Government, they were in an actual minority. He therefore did hope they would re-consider this question.

"To be applied to maintaining, carrying forward, and following up the system of education which he considered to have been introduced by him."

Well, he would ask, was the House to favour the getting rid of this destination by a kind of side-wind-to favour a breach of the trust, that other schemes might be benefited-the one which was now proposed being, he ventured to think, never contemplated in the original grant? Then, in support of his views, they had in another part of the Report of the Commissioners a statement that the income of the Trust was £600 a-year, and that it was applied in aid of education in the Orkney and Shetland Isles and the Highlands of Scotland in connection with the Church of Scotland. What more, then, was required? Surely the House would not sanction the transfer of the money from such an useful purpose to benefit a mere problematical scheme-one which, if not actually of no use, was, in the opinion of many, thought to be of little

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"for

MR. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN while admitting that those who were not acquainted with the details of the teaching profession might, at first, have some difficulty in forming a very precise conception of the duties which would be discharged by a Professor of Education, yet thought that his right hon. Friend (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had shown that a gap existed in the present training system of Scotland, which would be filled by the creation of this Professorship. He quite agreed, however, with his hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Mr. Ramsay) that they were entitled to expect from the Government full information as to the definite functions of the new Professor, and he had no doubt that the Government could give that information, otherwise they would surely not have inserted the item in the Vote. There was

no wish in any quarter to do anything to | There were great difficulties in framing injure those excellent institutions, the such a system for the foundation of these Normal Schools. The proposal before Chairs as should be consistent with the the Committee was, in fact, supplemen- present state of education and the pretary and not antagonistic, to the Normal servation of the Normal Schools. He Schools; but he believed that, in fact, had had a good deal of correspondence the opposition arose mainly from jealousy on this matter, not only on the question on the part of the supporters of those of the Chairs, but who was to have the institutions, and this jealousy found its appointments, and he found that there spring, as so many divisions in Scotland were great differences of opinion, not did, in Ecclesiastical differences. The only among Professors in Scotland, but Normal Schools were in connection either also among students. Unless the foundawith the Established or the Free Church, tions were very distinctly drawn up, so and those bodies were anxious that they as not to interfere with the local authoshould remain intact. Now Parliament rities, it would depend very much on the had established, two years ago, a national first appointment as to what the character system of education in Scotland, super- of the Chair was. This was a matter seding the denominational system which that deserved very great and serious had previously existed, and it appeared consideration. So far as he could underto him most desirable that there should stand, if the appointment was by the be some means whereby teachers might Crown there would be a disposition on the be trained other than denominational part of the Trustees to say they would Colleges. He was aware that these opi- like to have the first appointment. Very nions were now in disfavour in the House; great difficulties might arise on that but they afforded to him one of the point. Since the matter had been before strongest reasons for supporting this the attention of Her Majesty's GovernVote. Besides, there was this important ment, they had had the Report of the consideration-that the Normal Schools Endowed School Commissioners laid befurnished no means of training for their fore them, and certain suggestions had duties the teachers of secondary schools. been given to them extending beyond Secondary education was in a very back- what in his own notion appeared to be ward condition in Scotland; efforts were desirable. Especial reference was made now being made to improve it; and he to the aim and intention of Dr. Bell. believed that the higher training which The Endowed School Commissioners certhis Chair would be the means of giving tainly did not recommend the foundation to teachers would be essential for that of these Chairs, and the Government had purpose. since been very anxious to hear the opinions of Scotch Members on this matter with respect to the Vote before the Committee. He therefore thought, having heard the discussion, the decidedly wiser course would be to give further time for consideration, and to withdraw the Vote for this year in order that Scotland might have an opportunity of considering the matter in all its bearings, so that when it was brought forward another year it might be clearly understood what the foundations of these Chairs were to be.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE asked who was to have the right of appointment to these Chairs?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, there seemed all along to have been some little mistake about the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government. No doubt, the object of Bell's Trustees was a very good one in wishing to establish those Chairs. The proper way, however, would have been to have come to himself or the Lord Advocate in order to elicit the feeling of the Government in the matter; but the cart seemed to have been put before the horse, and the question was brought before the Chancellor of the Exchequer not as a matter of policy but as a matter of money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer saw no reason why the money should not be granted, assuming that all other matters had been settled before they came to him. But there were great difficulties about this matter.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR said, he had heard the statement of the Home Secretary with equal surprise and regret. In his Parliamentary experience he did not know of a case where the Government having, after mature consideration, recommended, on their responsibility, a Vote to the House, dropped it without saying a word in its favour, or without any explanation as to the grounds on

which they originally proposed it. But | lieved the nation would be in every way he regretted still more the attitude which the losers, because though the Scotch had been taken by several Liberal Mem- people were much in advance of the bers on this side of the House, for he English in education, they had still was certain before long they would see something to learn on this question, and that their opposition to the Vote had through them a better system of teachplayed into the hands of Conservative ing might have spread itself to England. Members opposite, and that they had made a serious mistake in Liberal policy.

MR. M'LAREN, assuming that it was a good object to establish such a Chair as this, would recommend the Universities of England with an income of £750,000-a great deal of which they did not know what to do with-to try the experiment. If the hon. Baronet would use his influence with Oxford and Cambridge to establish such a Chair, if he thought it was useful, he might, having done that in his own country, then go to Scotland and preach to them to do so likewise.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE rose to move a further reduction in the Vote. Many of the Professorships in Scotland were in the hands of Trustees, and some in the hands of private persons, and he wanted to ask the opinion of the Committee whether it was desirable to take the money of Parliament for Professorships the appointments to which were in private hands? Special attention had been called to St. Andrews University, where an appointment to the Professorship of Humanity was in the gift of the Duke of Portland as representing John Scott, who, in 1620, gave a foundation for that Chair. The effect was that the fittest men would not come forward for appointments which they believed were not made on merit, but by private interest. He should move the reduction of the Vote by £120.

THE CHAIRMAN explained that it was incompetent for the hon. Member to move an Amendment on an Amendment in Committee. He would suggest that the Government, accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Glasgow, should withdraw the Vote and put it in a reduced form.

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, this was a question which had been moved without any Notice, and he ventured to submit it was not competent for the hon. Member to move it—at all events, in the present inconvenient form. No doubt there was a Professorship in St. Andrews of which the appointment was vested in the Duke of Portland, one of his ancestors having endowed that Professorship. Under the Act of 1858, the University Commissioners founded the Professorship of Humanity in the University of St. Andrews, and a proposition was made, and carried into effect, that £120 should be added to the endowment by the ancestor of the Duke of Portland, in order to maintain the Professor in a suitable manner. Why should the Professor be punished in this manner because the appointment was vested in a private patron? If it was thought expedient to transfer the patronage from the Duke of Portland to any other body, the proper course would be to bring in a Bill to vest the patronage in the Crown, compensation being given to the Duke; but he really submitted that they had no right to punish this unfortunate Professor for what he was not responsible for. It was an inconvenient proposal, and he believed it was not competent to be moved.

THE CHAIRMAN ruled that the hon. Member for Chelsea had a perfect right to move the reduction of the Vote irrespective of any reasons he might give.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR said, he was unfortunately absent, sending a telegram on the late unfortunate event, and did not hear the speech of the hon. Member for Chelsea; but he understood he had made a proposal which in its results would be very serious to the UniOriginal Motion, by leave, withdrawn.versities of Scotland, because there was

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

not only this one but many others in the same position. There were various Professorships in Edinburgh in the same position. The Commissioners had, however, wisely recommended that attempts should be made to get these private Professorships converted into public Professorships, and no doubt the Government would desire to give effect to these recommendations. On this ground, he hoped the hon. Baronet would be satisfied with a protest against the practice.

MR. RAMSAY merely rose for the purpose of appealing to the hon. Baronet to withdraw this Motion, because if it

were passed they would not only be guilty of inflicting great injury upon an individual, but they would deprive the University of St. Andrews of this Chair of Humanity, which was not a desirable thing to do. He sympathized fully with the views of the hon. Baronet, and he disliked as much as he did private presentation to University Chairs; but he suggested the question should not be raised in this form.

Question put.

The Committee divided:-Ayes 12; Noes 111: Majority 99.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) £1,500, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c., Scotland.

tory proportions of this kind. It must be remembered that Ireland was an agricultural country with 300,000 holdings under £8 value; and the defective attendance of the agricultural population was one of the great difficulties they had to deal with in England. No doubt an average attendance of 395,390 with 1,006,511 on the roll looked very bad. But the numbers on the roll were not, as in England, those who appeared on it on the last day of the month preceding the examination-they comprised every child who had made a single attendance during the year. Emigration and change of school must also make this most inaccurate; it showed obviously

not the actual number of individual pupils, the same child appearing pro

(3.) Motion made, and Question pro-bably on several rolls. He thought it posed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £488,668, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland."

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would be well if in future a better opportunity could be given of comparing the results in the two countries, for at present very erroneous deductions might be drawn. With reference to Ireland it was stated that only 36 per cent of the children on the rolls attended instruction, and that 64 per cent were conspicuous by their absence;" but that Estimate must be interpreted by the circumstance to which he had just referred. They had been told that in Great Britain 42 per cent of the children on the rolls passed in reading, while in Ireland the proportion was 18 per cent; but in discussing this question the disparity should be borne in mind. In Ireland, in 1869, out of 243,288 children 171,291 passed in reading, being 70 per cent of the number examined, while of 130,791 examined in writing 71,824 passed, or 55 per cent; and he believed that if they dealt merely with the proportion of passes Ireland would show a very good result as compared with England. In Ireland, in 1872, 87.6 per cent passed in reading, 82.0 per cent passed in writing, and in arithmetic 71.2 per cent; while in England there passed 88.6 per cent in reading, 82.3 per cent in writing, and in arithmetic 72.2 per cent. In Ireland, in 1873, 87-7 per cent passed in reading, 83.3 per cent in

SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH said, he regretted that this Estimate had not come under the consideration of the Committee at an earlier date. But the delay had enabled them to have access not only to the original, but the Supplementary Estimate, as well as the Bill of the Government with regard to the income of national school teachers, and the Report of the National Board of Irish Education for 1874. They were, therefore, enabled more usefully to discuss the great question before them than they could have done at an earlier period of the Session. He would not detain the Committee with many general remarks on the question of Irish national education; but it was right he should state shortly that it appeared from the Report of 1874 the system was progressing and extending throughout the country. The number of schools was now 7,357, being an increase of 97; and of children on the roll 1,006,511, an increase of 31,815; the average attendance was 395,390, being an increase of 22,019, in spite of a considerable out-writing, and in arithmetic 70-4 per cent; break of scarlatina, which would tend to increase the irregularity of attendHe did not say that he looked on that average attendance of children on the roll as satisfactory; but Ireland was not alone at fault in showing unsatisfac

ance.

while in England there passed in 1873 in reading 88.6 per cent, in writing 81.6 per cent, and in arithmetic 72.1 per cent; and in 1874 in Ireland there passed in reading 86.8 per cent, in writing 86.7 per cent, and in arithmetic 69.0 per cent;