MR. WHALLEY said, he fully accepted the responsibility of his statement. He hoped that this was the last time during the present Session he would have to call attention to the subject.

the House and a conspiracy to maintain | bound, however, to state that the hon. silence on the part of the Press which Member has reiterated his opinion on had prevented the facts from becoming the Tichborne Case several times, and known, and justified him in saying there that the House has shown great forbearhad been a portentous and atrocious ance. While I cannot say that the hon. conspiracy, for the purpose of depriving Member is out of Order, I would remind this man of his estates, that inquiry had him that he has repeated his statement been evaded, suppressed, and crushed, more than once. and that the existence of the atrocious conspiracy of which he spoke was known to persons who held responsible positions. No doubt the Judges and the jury who tried the case had discharged what they considered to be their duty, but they were condemned by all who knew the real facts. He had in vain endeavoured to get from the Government what the trial had cost. At an early period of the Session the Secretary to the Treasury stated it would be £55,000, and intimated that though some matters were not settled that amount would not be exceeded. He (Mr. Whalley) and others were surprised at that statement, and he believed that he did not exaggerate when he said that the cost was at least £500,000. If he was wrong let the Government correct him. He asked also whether the detectives who had been employed in the case had been paid by the Treasury or by the Home Office; and if the latter were the case, how much they had cost? There was scarcely a Rule of the House which had not been more or less strained and violated. The Secretary for the Treasury had promised to give Returns in connection with the case, but he had failed to carry out that promise, and as the Returns presented were in many points deficient, he thought the House was entitled to have fuller particulars of the costs which had been incurred. Those Returns had been withheld deliberately, and in violation of an express promise. Perhaps he would not be fortunate on that occasion, but he felt bound to call attention to the subject and again to reiterate his conviction that there had been a failure of justice in the

case.

more

MR. FORSYTH rose to Order, and asked whether the hon. Member had a right to state that a conviction which was arrived at after a regular trial in open Court was the result of an atrocious conspiracy?

MR. SPEAKER: The Question is, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. On a Question of that kind great latitude is allowed. I am

MR. W. H. SMITH said, he did not know if the House desired him to follow the hon. Member-["No, no!"]-but as he had referred to what he considered an engagement upon his part, he must say he was not conscious of having made any such engagement as the hon. Member seemed to suppose. The Return to which the hon. Member referred was laid upon the Table on May 11, 1874, and in answer to a Question early this Session, he said the total cost of the Tichborne trial was about £60,000. The actual amount paid up to the present time was £60,074 198. 4d. He acknowledged he refused to give further Returns, because he believed they were not required by the House. The cost to them would be heavy, and he hoped the House would agree with him that unnecessary Returns should not be published. As to the trial itself, he left the hon. Member's remarks to be considered by those who were better able to judge than he was, but he believed in the course he had taken he had the general support of the House.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put and agreed

to.

SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.

SUPPLY-considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £505, to complete the sum for Commissioners of Education, Ireland. (2.) £1,739, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, Ireland, &c.

(3.) £1,550, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy.

(4.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £3,648, be | factory footing. The money which had granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum from time to time been voted had not necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on fulfilled the objects for which it had the 31st day of March 1876, for the Queen's been granted, and, instead of giving University in Ireland." University education to the entire middle

MR. ERRINGTON, in moving to re-class, practically the Catholics had been duce the Vote by a sum of £1,261, said, debarred from participating in it. A he had no desire to do anything which certain duty had been discharged under would tend to prevent the advance of the system admirably, so far as providlearning and education in Ireland, or in- ing education for professional men-so deed in any part of the United Kingdom; far as turning out competent doctors, but he was afraid there was a general competent engineers, and competent feeling in passing the Vote that they lawyers. The system so far had been a were doing all they could to promote success, and it had also brought into a higher education. This was, however, position of respectability and indenot the case, for the system of educa-pendence, by giving them Government tion adopted in the Queen's University was entirely opposed to the religious principles of the mass of the Irish people, and they, feeling that proper facilities were not given to all classes, would not avail themselves of the present system of public education. It was admitted that some persons obtained an excellent secular education in the Queen's College; but the class of the Irish people who

stood most in need of it did not. He
did not pretend to say whether they
were wise or not in the course they
adopted, but that great difficulties
existed would not be denied, and he
hoped next year some step would be
taken to remove them. He gave Notice
that unless someone more qualified than
himself took the initiative he should at
the earliest possible moment next
call attention to the subject of Univer-
sity education in Ireland in the most
thorough and complete way in which
he could raise the question.

year

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,387, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Queen's University in Ireland."-(Mr. Errington.)

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY regretted that an attempt should be made to raise a debate upon the question at that stage of it, and at that late period of the Session. He, however, took it that his hon. Friend the Member for Longford was simply entering a protest against the existing state of affairs. The present condition of the subject could not be regarded as one which could be allowed to rest, because University education in Ireland was upon anything but a satis

and Civil Service employment, men who belonged to Catholic families, but a The intention originally was not that wider question than this was involved. the money should be devoted to training that class of people, but that education should be open to the great body of the population, and in that respect the system had not been a success. This was a most interesting matter for Ireland, because every day the people of Ireland were beginning to see more clearly that they were intellectually, commercially, politically, and to a certain extent morally deteriorating for the want of education. The people would be able to govern themselves better and be able to manage their own affairs if they were better eduIt was a cated than they now were. foolish idea to suppose that this was merely a clerical question, and that none but the clergy took any interest in it. There never was a greater mistake. He hoped his hon. Friend would not press his Amendment, but rest content with having entered his protest against the supposition that the system for which the Vote was intended in any way satisfied either the wants or the wishes of the people of Ireland.

MR. WARD was of opinion that the system adopted of having as many scholarships and exhibitions as there were students in the College had the effect of deteriorating higher class education in Ireland. He wished to point out that, although three Queen's Colleges were kept up in Ireland, the result of their working for the past year showed only 131 art students, and this arose from the fact that the Catholics were unjustly treated, the Professors miserably underpaid, and the system itself almost incredibly defective. The

SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH thought that it should be remembered that very few persons in the country desired an Art education.

grammar schools were going down, ex- | tained that they were mere professional cept perhaps in Belfast, and that arose schools. because Queen's Colleges had enticed away the scholars, and turned mere school boys into University students. The standard of University education in Ireland had been considerably lowered, and it was about the coolest proposition he ever heard to ask Parliament to contribute to the support of such a system as that carried on at the Queen's University and the Queen's Colleges-a system which the people of Ireland did not want, and which, if they had the power, they would reject to-morrow. He did not, however, object to the increase of the Vote, which was simply for the increase of the pay of the Professors.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH said, he understood the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Errington) not seriously to wish that the Vote should be reduced, but merely to desire to record his protest against the existing system of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland. He would not, on that occasion, enter into the important question of University education in Ireland, for it would be better if any objection to that system were brought

under the notice of the House in the form of a distinct Resolution rather than that of a mere Motion to reduce the amount of a Vote. The remarks of the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) were characterized by his usual moderation and good sense. He understood the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Ward) to complain that the regulations as to the Arts Faculty at that College were not satisfactory in any way; He (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) would admit that the Faculty was not largely attended, but the arts were taught, and those who did attend really devoted themselves heartily to the work. Therefore, he could not agree with the hon. Member, because in his opinion, taking into consideration the strong opposition it had to encounter, the Queen's University in Ireland did fulfil a great and an important work with reference to the education of the Irish people, and, in proportion to its annual expenditure, the work it did was perhaps greater than that of the older Universities of England. The fact was that the Queen's University did for Ireland very much what the Scotch Universities did for Scotland.

MR. WARD said, he agreed that a good education was given; but he main

MR. RONAYNE said, that the Cork Queen's College was conducted in a manner which fully justified the remarks of the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Ward). The people of Ireland would not have the system of education which was being forced upon them, because it was against their traditions and their religious principles. The students were not educated in general literature or in any degree beyond the speciality for which they went there, to be, as it were, veneered. There was no active ecclesiastical antagonism to these Colleges; but it was contrary to the feelings of the people to attend schools or Colleges where there was no religious teaching.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(5.) £4,926, to complete the sum for Queen's Colleges, Ireland.

CLASS V-COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND

OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES. (6.) £144,742, to complete the sum for Diplomatic Services.

(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £186,139, be necessary to defray the Charge which will come granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Consular Establishments Abroad, and for other Expenditure chargeable on the Consular Vote."

MR. J. HOLMS, in moving the reduction of the Vote by £3,565, said, a Select Committee had sat upon the question, and it was understood that where the increase of expense was rendered necessary in certain cases, an endeavour should be made to reduce the expense on useless Consulates. He thought the time had come when a reduction might be shown. He would instance the cases of Alicante, Mogador-where there were very few, if any, English at all-and Elsinore, and also those of Buenos Ayres, Monte Video, Callao, Valparaiso, Odessa, and Tiflis, respecting which he hoped to hear some explanation.

Motion made, and Question proposed, | assistance by appointing salaried Vice "That a sum, not exceeding £182,574, be Consuls rather than by granting the granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum Consuls increased office allowances or necessary to defray the Charge which will come salaries; but the question of ecoin course of payment during the year ending on nomy had not been lost sight of. As the 31st day of March 1876, for the Consular to Odessa, there was only a net inEstablishments Abroad, and for other Expenditure chargeable on the Consular Vote."(Mr. crease of expense of £150 a-year; and John Holms.) with reference to Tiflis it was a point of such commercial and political importance MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, that that it was thought to be very imporno part of our Civil Service had under- tant that a Consul should be appointed gone so thorough an investigation as the there. He hoped the Committee would Consular Service, which had come out be satisfied with this explanation. There of the inquiry with very great credit, it might be cases where reductions of salary having been shown that the members might be made, and the Foreign Office of that service had performed their was anxious to carry out all possible reduties with considerable advantage to ductions, but it was necessary to do it the country. Great pains had been taken with scrupulous care. New markets were by the Department to carry out the re-opening all over the world, so that it commendations of the Select Committee became advisable to have British agents of that House, which had sat some time to look after our commerce there, and, since, to investigate the position of the in fact, they had received several comservice, and in accordance with those munications from places abroad requestrecommendations, the number of Consu-ing that the British Government would lar posts in many places had been re-appoint Consuls at the ports of those duced, to enable Consuls to be appointed in more important positions. That Committee, however, had admitted in its Report that many of the Consular posts were underpaid, and the increase in the charges in the instances referred to by the hon. Member were sanctioned after a most careful inquiry, instituted with the view of securing additional efficiency and economy. In each case the increase had been made on the recommendations of a Departmental Committee which had been sitting for the last two years. With regard to the case of Mogador, that post had been raised from a Vice Consulship to a Consulship in consequence of the Consular and Magisterial duties being of an important character, and experience having proved both in this case and in respect to Elsinore that the duties could not be efficiently carried out by trading and unpaid officers. With reference to Alicante, that was a Consulate which the Government hoped eventually to reduce, but they thought it would not be desirable to do so in the present state of Spain, especially as the Consul was a valuable and experienced officer. As to the cases mentioned in South America, the Consular duties there had increased, and it was found necessary to afford the Consuls at the posts alluded to additional assistance; and, after mature consideration, it was deemed expedient, in the interests of the service, to afford this

places, and, commercially considered, those applications were deserving of attention. He therefore feared he could hold out no hope of reducing the Consular posts, but he trusted the Foreign Office would be able to regulate the matter properly, so that it might be found practicable, with a due regard to efficiency, to reduce some salaries, at the same time that other salaries might have to be increased. Lord Tenterden, the Permanent Under Secretary at the Foreign Office, Mr. Alston, the Chief Clerk, and Mr. Wylde, the Superintendent of the Consular department, made every effort to secure efficiency in the Consular Service, and also to reduce the posts whenever they found there was a redundancy. The latter gentleman took the greatest care to keep down our Consular establishments to the lowest level that was compatible with efficiency, and in the recommendations which he made to the Secretary of State went into each case laboriously and conscientiously. Much time was taken up in seeing whether reductions could be made, but this was a matter which had to be dealt with very carefully.

MR. WHITWELL, referring to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, said, that many of them, but not all, had been attended to by the Government. The subject of proper representation of the interests of British