these papers its contents became a matter of public discussion; and he believed he was showing respect and attachment to those Royal Personages by eliciting, as no doubt he should do, from the MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-noble Duke a direct contradiction to all

not

"I do not say that there was not something coarse in this somewhat despotic observation; but it contains the germ of good sense, and a right appreciation of the national feelings that for Englishmen, at all events, the Sovereign should be the only fountain of honour."[Ibid.]

The noble Earl afterwards stated that a regulation to this effect had been made in 1812. After explaining the few exceptions to the rule thus laid down, the noble Earl went on to say—

adherence to the same policy and the | English subjects without the consent of their same principles. Could Cardinal Man- own Sovereign."-[3 Hansard, ccxiv. 777.] ning, as a British subject, be presented? He referred to Queen Elizabeth, saying When he was made a Cardinal the "She did not like her dogs to wear question of his position was much dis- any collar but her own;" to George III., cussed in the public journals of this by saying he "Liked his sheep to be country. If he waived his rank and marked with his own mark." He conwished to be presented as Dr. Manning, tinuedhe had no doubt that Her Majesty would be well advised as to the course she should pursue; but if so received at Court, the name of "Doctor, Cardinal Manning would appear on the list. But as the announcement in the paragraph was received by many as true, and by more as important, he must endeavour very shortly to elucidate the law and practice of this matter both at home and abroad: to show that, not in the United Kingdom only, but over the whole Continent, it was, and always had been, held to be a matter of serious import-first, How did the law stand as to Cardinals? He wished some noble and learned Lord would tell them. But he found that when, in 1851, this question was considered, it was not contradicted that a Cardinal's duty was to assist in forwarding the business of the Holy See, and he could, therefore, only absent himself from Rome by reason of being sent as a Legate; and that the Government of this country, and of every country in Europe, accepting this view, did not permit a Cardinal to reside in their dominions, except by consent of the Crown. By the Act allowing diplomatic relations with Rome, the Sovereign was forbidden to receive an ecclesiastic as Ambassador from the Holy See. Then it was certain that no British subject could accept a foreign Order without permission of the Crown, and that this permission was never granted, save in the case He (Lord Oranmore and Browne) acof an Envoy carrying an English deco- cepted this line of reasoning as unanration to a foreign Sovereign, or in the swerable, and contended that if it was case of an Englishman distinguishing good touching decorations, which carried himself in the field, either when in the with them no precedence and no authoservice of or acting with the troops of a rity à fortiori, how much more necessary foreign Sovereign. The noble Earl the that the same rules should be enforced late Minister of Foreign Affairs enforced in cases of rank giving the highest the soundness and importance of this precedence!-an authority involving the rule so forcibly that he felt sure their religious and political feelings, and, to Lordships would be glad that he should some extent, denying the supremacy of recall a part of his statement on that the Crown. But, in truth, he only advooccasion. The noble Lord (Earl Gran-cated that rank conferred by the Pope ville), stated

"It has been held for centuries that Orders from foreign Sovereigns could not be held by

"It is impossible to make exceptions at all without breaking down the whole thing. I may refer to a case that occurred during the last war. The Legion of Honour was offered to Colonel Loyd Lindsay, who already bore the Victoria Cross on his breast, who was in every way worthy of the honour the French Government offered to confer upon him, and in whose case an exception to our general rule would, I venture to think, have been equally agreeable to Germany as to France. But I should have been obliged to make the same answer in his case as I have in all others, if from other reasons he had not been entitled to wear it. I wish to point out some of the difficulties which would probably have arisen from a compliance with the application for permission in Colonel Loyd Lindsay's case. He had distinguished himself in bringing aid to the wounded; but at the same time he was doing that, there were others engaged in it. In France, there were subjects of Her Majesty engaged in it who might have been influenced by political and religious feelings. Some of them belonged to the Home Rule party. decoration were given to these persons, the If permission to wear a foreign exception would have been made in favour of men who to some extent deny the supremacy of the Sovereign."-[Ibid. 779-80.]

on a British subject should be treated in exactly the same way as rank conferred by the Emperor of Germany or any

"as aggressive, not defensive; as putting forward principles adverse to the purity and integrity of civil allegiance, as a policy of violence and change of faith." Till the Roman Church returned to the policy of Dr. Murray the principle of self-preservation alone forbade all concession. With regard to the Question he had to put, he hoped that the noble Duke would give no evasive answer to it, but that he would tell their Lordships that Cardinal Manning was not in any capacity presented to or received by Her Majesty, and that the Government could not advise Her Majesty to confirm the rank given to the Cardinal by the Pope. An assurance on these points would give great satisfaction to every loyal subject of Her Majesty. In conclusion, he hoped the Government would show their reprobation of that veiled treason which induced the Chief Magistrate of Dublin only last night to give the toast of "The Pope" before that of "The Queen."

other Potentate. But he asked attention in England," which meant the overto the following results, a very small throw of every principle on which our part of the whole question, if this whole- institutions were founded, and both were some rule were not held to apply to dig- the advocates of Infallibility and the nitaries of the Roman Catholic Church. supremacy of the Church of Rome over According to the Roman Catholic Regis- all Powers and Principalities. The exter, he found there were two Cardinals, Premier, convinced by the telegram from six Roman Catholic Archbishops, and Rome which deprived him of office, truly 44 Roman Bishops, English subjects, described their views residing in the United Kingdom, and besides these there were a crowd of minor dignitaries. Here were 52 gentlemen claiming rank derived from a foreign Potentate without consent of the Crown, two of them claiming precedence over any rank the Queen could bestow. He might also mention that during the last few years the Pope had conferred the titles of Count and Baron on many British subjects. He could not conclude without referring to the precedence given in The Dublin Gazette, in 1849, to the Roman Catholic Archbishops. He asked the late Government, and he now asked the noble Duke-Was there ever any legal and official order signed for the precedence so gazetted? He was led to believe there never was. Though very sorry to intrude so long on their Lordships' time, he must say a few words to guard himself against being supposed to be so short-sighted or unpractical as to ask any Government to attempt to ignore the existence of the Roman Catholic Church in these realms. Having all his life lived under its benign influence, knowing the part it played in the present and the past history, he knew it was impossible. But it was only a weak Government which attempted to deal with it on any other principle than it dealt with the other great interests in the country, be they lay or ecclesiastical -namely, considering the interests of each as bearing on the whole, and always jealously guarding the supremacy of the Executive. Everyone would accept these principles; but every Government knew that the Roman Catholic Church only accepted them with reserve, and that every concession brought a fresh demand. Many moderate men who would have said that Her Majesty was right to show favour in 1849 to Dr. Murray, the friend of mixed education, of moderation, and conciliation would condemn as weak-position of Her Majesty in her own doness any favour shown by the Crown to Cardinals Manning or Cullen. Cardinal Manning had announced in one of his sermons that he came "to conquer heresy

VOL. CCXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, I hope that neither on this occasion, nor on any other occasion, I shall give an evasive answer to any Question which may be addressed to me in this House. In the first place, I do protest against the Question which the noble Lord has put. And I do think that it is a Question which ought never to have been placed upon the Notice Paper. I shall confine myself-as I believe your Lordships would wish me to do-to the Question which has been put to me; and I shall not attempt to follow the noble Lord into the discussion which he wishes to raise, as to the position of the Queen of this country. I had thought that that matter had been sufficiently established, and that the whole of the country were perfectly satisfied with, and had a thorough knowledge of, the

minions. I shall now proceed to answer the Question which the noble Lord has put. It is, whether at the garden party at Chiswick the Prince of Wales ad

X

ARMY (IRELAND)—GENERAL ORDER
No. 882.-ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK, in moving

"That an humble Address be presened to Her Majesty for, Copy of General Order, No. 882, Adjutant General's Office, Dublin, 30th July, 1875,"

said, that, in the Address, the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Sandhurst) referred to the effects of "recent legislation" on the people of Ireland. Such allusions, in a Military Order, were not likely to be attended with happy results.

vanced to meet Cardinal Manning on |ject should be debarred from Her Mahis arrival? I am able to answer, in jesty's Court merely because he had a the most unevasive and most direct certain dignity conferred upon him by manner, the Question which the noble the Church to which he belonged. Lord has put; because I have, by the courtesy of the Prince of Wales, the means of doing so. The Prince of Wales did not advance to meet Cardinal Manning on his arrival. The Cardinal received an invitation to a garden party at Chiswick, in common with many other of His Royal Highness's acquaintances. The Cardinal, like many others of His Royal Highness's acquaintances, availed himself of that invitation; but I have the authority of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales for saying that on the occasion of that garden party he had no opportunity of seeing the Cardinal. Therefore, he had no opportunity of shaking hands with him, and still less an opportunity of presenting him to Her Majesty the Queen. The last part of the Question is-"whether his Eminence remained within the Royal circle for some time-a privilege accorded only to those of the highest rank?" Now, those of your Lordships who have the honour and privilege of being invited to and attending the garden parties at Chiswick, must be aware that there is no such thing there as a Royal circle. The guests are ushered into a very large garden, where there are marquees, and refreshments for those who wish to partake of them, and the guests circulate about there in any manner which is most agreeable to themselves. Therefore, it is not correct to say that His Eminence remained within the Royal circle for some time. Now, having answered the inquiries of the noble Lord, I put it to your Lordships whether it is seemly that such Questions should be put-whether Questions should be asked in this House about the private entertainments of Members of the Royal Family?

EARL CADOGAN hoped the noble Earl would not expect him to express on his own behalf, or that of the Government, an opinion on the General Order for which the noble Earl had moved. The noble and gallant Lord who had issued that Address was a Member of their Lordships' House, and it would be competent to him to explain or defend the Order if he should so think fit.

Motion agreed to.

Address for Copy of General Order, No. 882, Adjutant General's Office, Dublin, 30th July 1875.-(The Earl of Limerick.)

ARMY (INDIA)—CAVALRY RELIEFS.

QUESTION.

LORD WAVENEY asked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether it is proposed to relieve the Queen's regiments of European Cavalry in India at more frequent intervals?

EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, that, as at present arranged, Infantry_regiments remained 12 years in India. There were nine Cavalry regiments in India, and at present they served there between 11 and 12 years; but as one regiment returned home every season, the term of foreign service would soon be reduced to 10 years, at which period it was intended to retain it.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY must express his opinion that it was a very invidious thing for a noble Lord, who, according to his own account, spent most of his life among a Roman Catholic population, to give utterance to such sentiments as they had heard that evening. He referred to an Answer given by the noble Duke to the noble Lord on a similar question of precedence raised some five years ago, and said that he could not understand why any loyal sub-tary of State for India, Whether it

ARMY (INDIA)-HILL SANATARIA.

QUESTION.

LORD WAVENEY asked the Secre

might not be practicable, without injury to the public service, to detach dismounted Cavalry and Gunners of Her Majesty's regular forces (European) in India to Hill Stations for sanitary reasons; and whether the Indian Government propose to extend the system of Sanataria for the women and children of the European troops?

UNSEAWORTHY SHIPS BILL.

(The Lord President.)

FIRST READING.

Bill read 1a.

Bill to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next. (No. 265.)

House adjourned at Six o'clock, till
To-morrow, Twelve o'clock.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, he would move the second reading on Monday. He must ask their Lordships to meet to-morrow to forward Bills; but THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in no business likely to give rise to a disreply, said, it was not desirable to de-cussion would be taken. tach dismounted cavalry and gunners to hill stations in the way suggested by the noble Lord. The Government of India had been for a long time expending a great deal of labour and money in improving the sanitary condition of various places in which troops were stationed. The result was, that in many of those stations the death rate was much lower than it had been, and the sanitary statistics would compare favourably with those of any other quarters in the world. As to the second part of the noble Lord's Question, he did not know whether the noble Lord meant that the women were to go to the sanataria without their husbands.

LORD WAVENEY said, its object was to know whether the Government would be disposed to supplement the voluntary assistance that had been given, and extend the system of sanataria for the women and children of the European troops? Colonel Sir Frederic Fitzwygram, lately on Indian service, had given £10,000 to be applied for the benefit of the wives and children of Cavalry troops only for a sanatarium; and he wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government were disposed to assist further that voluntary contribution in providing sanataria for the women and children of the troops generally, independent of the regimental and divisional sanataria?

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he had no information as to the circumstances connected with the fund just referred to by the noble Lord; but he could at once say that he did not think encouragement should be given by the Government of India to any proposal for unnecessarily separating the women from their husbands. Of course, the health of women and children was attended to at the stations as well as that of the men; but a plan for sending the women and children to separate sanataria was one which could not be encouraged.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 6th August, 1875.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading-
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Sheriffs
Substitute (Scotland) [273].
Committee-Report-Supreme Court of Judica-
ture Act (1873) Amendment (No. 2) [162]
Local Authorities Loans (re-comm.) [197]

Restriction on Penal Actions and Remission of Penalties [267]; Department of Science and Art* [283]. Considered as amended-Third Reading-Supreme Court of Judicature Act (1873) Amendment (No. 2) (re-comm.) [162]; National School Teachers Residences (Ireland) [279], and passed. Third Reading Unseaworthy Ships [281] Agricultural Holdings (England) [277] Ecclesiastical Fees Redistribution *[282], and passed. Withdrawn-Jersey Courts [107].

*

SEA FISHERIES (SCOTLAND)—HER
MAJESTY'S SHIP "JACKAL."
QUESTION.

MR. YEAMAN asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true, as reported in the "Northern Ensign" newspaper of the 31st day of July, that Her Majesty's ship "Jackal," being sent to Wick for the protection of the fisheries, her services were refused, on Friday the 30th of July, when they were earnestly asked on behalf of fishing boats and fishermen exposed to imminent peril on that coast, on the ground that a vessel of