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these papers its contents became a matter HOUSE OF LORDS, of public discussion; and he believed

he was showing respect and attachment Friday, 6th August, 1875.

to those Royal Personages by eliciting,

as no doubt he should do, from the MINUTES. ]—PUBLIC BILLS— First Reading, noble Duke a direct contradiction to all Unseaworthy Ships * (265); Public Works that was important in the paragraph re

Loans* (266). Second Reading — Ecclesiastical Commissioners ferred to. Some told him the matter

Act Amendment * (252); Expiring Laws Con was of no importance; but that the tinuance * (260); East India Home Govern- matter was of public interest was shown ment (Appointments) * (261); Public Health | by leading articles having appeared on (Scotland) Act, 1867, Amendment* (262), the subject in the leading journal, in Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1869, Amendment * (236).

the leading Roman Catholic journal, Committee --- Report Parliamentary Elections and in some others at the time of Dr.

(Returning Officers) * (250); Government Manning being made a Cardinal. Living, Officers (Security) * (251); Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans) * (244).

as he did, among a Roman Catholic poReport — Militia Laws Consolidation and Amend-pulation, generally well - disposed and ment * (243-264).

well-conducted, but with their allegiance Third ReadingTurnpike Acts Continuance nicely balanced between their Church

(222); Traffic Regulation (Dublin) * (239), and the State, he knew that the latter and passed. Withdrawn-Common Law Procedure Act, 1852,

could not afford to yield one atom to Extension * (68).

the aggression of the former; and if the

reception of Dr. Manning as a Cardinal CARDINAL MANNING.

was uncontradicted, it would doubtless OBSERVATIONS.

give some additional influence to the

the Roman Catholic Church in these LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE realms. His contention, therefore, was rose to call the attention of the Lord that in these realms the Queen was the President to the following paragraph :

-sole Fountain of Honour, and that withExtract from “ Weekly Register,"

out her approval every British subject 17th July, 1875:

was forbidden to accept any rank or de“ Court, Fashionable, and Home News."

coration from any foreign Potentate. “The Queen and the Cardinal. Reception of Before dwelling on the few facts necesHis Eminence at the Prince of Wales' garden party. The question of Cardinal Manning's sary to support this view he would state precedence was indirectly settled at the Prince his grounds for believing the facts conof Wales' garden party last week, when Her tained in the paragraph to be unfounded. Majesty the Queen was present. The Prince of Her Majesty has always been remarkrival, cordially shook hands with him, and then able for her intimate knowledge of presented His Eminence to His Royal Mother, punctilious adherence to constitutional wbo received him most graciously and conversed forms and principles. She was well with him for a while. His Eminence remained aware that it was only by suffrance that within the royal circle for some time, a privilege a Cardinal resided in this country, and accorded only to those of the highest rank.”

if she intended to permit Dr. Manning The noble Lord said, The Weekly Register to accept the rank of Cardinal she would was a paper of considerable authority do it in the legal and official form. By among Roman Catholics, and up to a so doing she would show that as a conrecent period, at all events, enjoyed the stitutional Sovereign she had acted on special blessing of the Pope. He now the advice of her Ministers; whereas by wished to ask the noble Duke the Lord an informal recognition it might be said President, whether the information con- she evinced her sympathies with the tained in that paragraph was correct. views advocated by Dr. Manning, though, Having heard it said that by calling at thank God, she left her people no room tention to it he was intruding on the to doubt her willing acceptance of those privacy of the Royal Family, he would Protestant principles on which by the first repudiate the justice of that asser- Act of Settlement, her Throne was based. tion. The condemnation justly applied And as the name of the illustrious Heir to those who had inserted the paragraph to the Throne had been introduced into in The Church Herald and Weekly Re- the paragraph, he would take the occagister, and that clearly with a political sion of saying that the people of this object. But once circulated through country had no less confidence in his

adherence to the same policy and the English subjects without the consent of their same principles. Could Cardinal Man- own Sovereign.”—[3 Hansard, ccxiy. 777.] ning, as a British subject, be presented ? He referred to Queen Elizabeth, saying When he was made a Cardinal the - She did not like her dogs to wear question of his position was much dis- any collar but her own;" to George III., cussed in the public journals of this by saying he “Liked his sheep to be country. If he waived his rank and marked with his own mark.” He con wished to be presented as Dr. Manning, tinuedhe had no doubt that Her Majesty would “I do not say that there was not something be well advised as to the course she coarse in this somewhat despotic observation : should pursue ; but if so received at but it contains the germ of good sense, and a Court, the name of “Doctor," not

right appreciation of the national feelings that Cardinal Manning would appear on should be the only fountain of honour."—

for Englishmen, at all events, the Sovereiga the list. But as the announcement in [Ibid.] the paragraph was received by many The noble Earl afterwards stated that a as true, and by more as important, regulation to this effect had been made he must endeavour very shortly to in 1812. After explaining the few ex. elucidate the law and practice of this ceptions to the rule thus laid down, the matter both at home and abroad: to noble Earl went on to sayshow that, not in the United Kingdom only, but over the whole Continent, it

“It is impossible to make exceptions at all was, and always had been, held to be a

without breaking down the whole thing. ...

I may refer to a case that occurred during the matter of serious import—first, How did last war. The Legion of Honour was offered the law stand as to Cardinals ? He to Colonel Loyd Lindsay, who already bore the wished some noble and learned Lord Victoria Cross on his breast, who was in every would tell them. But he found that way worthy of the honour the French Governa when, in 1851, this question was consi- ment offered to confer upon him, and in whose

case an exception to our general rule would, I dered, it was not contradicted that a Car- venture to think, have been equally agreeable to dinal's duty was to assist in forwarding Germany as to France. But I should have the business of the Holy See, and he been obliged to make the same answer in his could, therefore, only absent himself

case as I have in all others, if from other reasons

he had not been entitled to wear it. I wish to from Rome by reason of being sent as a point out some of the difficulties which would Legate; and that the Government of probably have arisen from a compliance with this country, and of every country in the application for permission in Colonel Lord Europe, accepting this view, did not Lindsay's case. He had distinguished himself

in bringing aid to the wounded; but at the permit a Cardinal to reside in their

same time he was doing that, there were others dominions, except by consent of the engaged in it. In France, there were snbjects Crown. By the Act allowing diplomatic of Her Majesty engaged in it who might have relations with Rome, the Sovereign was been influenced by political and religious fetlforbidden to receive an ecclesiastic as

Some of them belonged to the Home Ambassador from the Holy See. Then it decoration were given to these persons, the

Rule party. If permission to wear a foreign was certain that no British subject could exception would have been made in favour of accept a foreign Order without permis- men who to some extent deny the supremacy of sion of the Crown, and that this permis- the Sovereign.”—[Ibid. 779-80.] sion was never granted, save in the case He (Lord Oranmore and Browne) acof an Envoy carrying an English deco- cepted this line of reasoning as unanration to a foreign Sovereign, or in the swerable, and contended that if it was case of an Englishman distinguishing good touching decorations, which carried himself in the field, either when in the with them no precedence and no authoservice of or acting with the troops of a rity à fortiori, how much more necessary foreign Sovereign. The noble Earl the that the same rules should be enforced late Minister of Foreign Affairs enforced in cases of rank giving the highest the soundness and importance of this precedence !-an authority involving the rule so forcibly that he felt sure their religious and political feelings, and, to Lordships would be glad that he should some extent, denying the supremacy of recall a part of his statement on that the Crown. But, in truth, he only advooccasion. The noble Lord (Earl Gran- cated that rank conferred by the Pope ville), stated

on a British subject should be treated in “It has been held for centuries that Orders exactly the same way as rank conferred from foreign Sovereigns could not be held by by the Emperor of Germany or any

Lord Oranmore and Browne


other Potentate. But he asked attention in England,” which meant the overto the following results, a very small throw of every principle on which our part of the whole question, if this whole institutions were founded, and both were some rule were not held to apply to dig- the advocates of Infallibility and the nitaries of the Roman Catholic Church. supremacy of the Church of Rome over According to the Roman Catholic Regis- all Powers and Principalities. The exter, he found there were two Cardinals, Premier, convinced by the telegram from six Roman Catholic Archbishops, and Rome which deprived him of office, truly 44 Roman Bishops, English subjects, described their views residing in the United Kingdom, and

as aggressive, not defensive ; as putting besides these there were a crowd of forward principles adverse to the purity and minor dignitaries. Here were 52 gen- integrity of civil allegiance, as a policy of viotlemen claiming rank derived from a

lence and change of faith.” foreign Potentate without consent of the Till the Roman Church returned to the Crown, two of them claiming precedence policy of Dr. Murray the principle of over any rank the Queen could bestow. self-preservation alone forbade all conHe might also mention that during the cession. With regard to the Question last few years the Pope had conferred the he had to put, he hoped that the noble titles of Count and Baron on many Bri- Duke would give no ovasive answer to tish subjects. He could not conclude it, but that he would tell their Lordwithout referring to the precedence given ships that Cardinal Manning was not in in The Dublin Gazette, in 1849, to the any capacity presented to or received by Roman Catholic Archbishops. He asked Her Majesty, and that the Government the late Government, and he now asked could not advise Her Majesty to confirm the noble Duke-Was there ever any the rank given to the Cardinal by the legal and official order signed for the Pope. An assurance on these points precedence so gazetted ? He was led would give great satisfaction to every to believe there never was. Though loyal subject of Her Majesty. In convery sorry to intrude so long on their clusion, he hoped the Government would Lordships' time, he must say a few words show their reprobation of that veiled to guard himself against being supposed treason which induced the Chief Magisto be so short-sighted or unpractical as trate of Dublin only last night to give to ask any Government to attempt to the toast of "The Pope" before that of ignore the existence of the Roman Ca-" "The Queen." tholic Church in these realms. Having THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My all his life lived under its benign in- Lords, I hope that neither on this occafluence, knowing the part it played in sion, nor on any other occasion, I shall the present and the past history, he knew give an evasive answer to any Question it was impossible. But it was only a which may be addressed to me in this weak Government which attempted to House. In the first place, I do protest deal with it on any other principle than against the Question which the noble it dealt with the other great interests in Lord has put. And I do think that it is the country, be they lay or ecclesiastical a Question which ought never to have -namely, considering the interests of been placed upon the Notice Paper. I each as bearing on the whole, and always shall confine myself—as I believe your jealously guarding the supremacy of Lordships would wish me to do—to the the Executive. Everyone would accept Question which has been put to me; these principles; but every Government and I shall not attempt to follow the knew that the Roman Catholic Church noble Lord into the discussion which he only accepted them with reserve, and wishes to raise, as to the position of the that every concession brought a fresh Queen of this country. I had thought demand. Many moderate men who would that that matter had been sufficiently have said that Her Majesty was right to established, and that the whole of the show favour in 1849 to Dr. Murray, the country were perfectly satisfied with, friend of mixed education, of moderation, and had a thorough knowledge of, the and conciliation would condemn as weak- position of Her Majesty in her own doness any favour shown by the Crown to minions. I shall now proceed to answer Cardinals Manning or Cullen. Cardinal the Question which the noble Lord has Manning had announced in one of his put. It is, whether at the garden party sermons that he

to conquer heresy at Chiswick the Prince of Wales adVOL. CCXXVI. (THIRD SERIES.]



vanced to meet Cardinal Manning on ject should be debarred from Her Mahis arrival ? I am able to answer, in jesty's Court merely because he had a the most unevasive and most direct certain dignity conferred upon him by manner, the Question which the noble the Church to which he belonged. Lord has put; because I have, by the courtesy of the Prince of Wales, the means of doing so. The Prince of ARMY (IRELAND)-GENERAL ORDER Wales did not advance to meet Cardinal

No. 882.--ADDRESS FOR A PAPER. Manning on his arrival. The Cardinal THE EARL OF LIMERICK, in received an invitation to a garden party movingat Chiswick, in common with many That an humble Address be presened to other of His Royal Highness's acquain- Her Majesty for, Copy of General Order, No. tances. The Cardinal, like many others 882, Adjutant General's Office, Dublin, 30th of His Royal Highness's acquaintances,

July, 1875," availed himself of that invitation ; but I said, that, in the Address, the noble and have the authority of His Royal High- gallant Lord (Lord Sandhurst) referred ness the Prince of Wales for saying that to the effects of “recent legislation" on on the occasion of that garden party he the people of Ireland. Such allusions, had no opportunity of seeing the Cardi. in a Military Order, were not likely to nal. Therefore, he had no opportunity be attended with happy results. of shaking hands with him, and still EARL CADOGAN hoped the noble less an opportunity of presenting him Earl would not expect him to express on to Her Majesty the Queen. The last his own behalf, or that of the Governpart of the Question is—“whether his ment, an opinion on the General Order Eminence remained within the Royal for which the noble Earl had moved. circle for some time - a privilege ac- The noble and gallant Lord who had corded only to those of the highest issued that Address was a Member of rank ?” Now, those of your Lordships their Lordships' House, and it would be who have the honour and privilege of competent to him to explain or defend being invited to and attending the garden the Order if he should so think fit. parties at Chiswick, must be aware that

Motion agreed to. there is no such thing there as a Royal circle. The guests are ushered into a very Address for Copy of General Order, No. 882, large garden, where there are marquees, 1876.-(The Earl of Limerick.)

Adjutant General's Office, Dublin, 30th July and refreshments for those who wish to partake of them, and the guests circulate about there in any manner which is ARMY (INDIA)-CAVALRY RELIEFS. most agreeable to themselves. There

QUESTION. fore, it is not correct to say that His Eminence remained within the Royal

LORD WAVENEY asked the Under circle for some time. Now, having an

Secretary of State for War, Whether it swered the inquiries of the noble Lord, is proposed to relieve the Queen's regiI put it to your Lordships whether it is ments of European Cavalry in India at seemly that such Questions should be more frequent intervals ? put-whether Questions should be asked

EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, that, in this House about the private enter-as at present arranged, Infantry regitainments of Members of the Royal ments remained 12 years in India. Family?

There were nine Cavalry regiments in LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY India, and at present they served there must express his opinion that it was a

between 11 and 12 years; but as one very invidious thing for a noble Lord, regiment returned home every season, who, according to his own account, spent

the term of foreign service would soon most of his life among a Roman Catholic be reduced to 10 years, at which period population, to give utterance to such it was intended to retain it. sentiments as they had heard that evening. He referred to an Answer given by the noble Duke to the noble Lord on

ARMY (INDIA)-HILL SANATARIA. a similar question of precedence raised

QUESTION. some five years ago, and said that he LORD WAVENEY asked the Secre. could not understand why any loyal sub- tary of State for India, Whether it

The Duke of Richmond


might not be practicable, without injury to the public service, to detach dis

UNSEAWORTHY SHIPS BILL. mounted Cavalry and Gunners of Her

(The Lord President.) Majesty's

regular forces (European) in India to Hill Stations for sanitary rea- Bill read 19. sons; and whether the Indian Govern

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, he ment propose to extend the system of would move the second reading on MonSanataria for the women and children day. He must ask their Lordships to of the European troops ?

meet to-morrow to forward Bills; but THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in

no business likely to give rise to a disreply, said, it was not desirable to de- cussion would be taken. tach dismounted cavalry and gunners to hill stations in the way suggested by the Bill to be printed ; and to be read 22 noble Lord. The Government of India on Monday next. (No. 265.) had been for a long time expending a great deal of labour and money in im

House adjourned at Six o'clock, till proving the sanitary condition of various

To-morrow, Twelve o'clock. places in which troops were stationed. The result was, that in many of those stations the death rate was much lower than it had been, and the sanitary statistics would compare favourably with those of any other quarters in the world. As to the second part of the noble Lord's HOUSE OF COMMONS, Question, he did not know whether the noble Lord meant that the women were

Friday, 6th August, 1875. to go to the sanataria without their husbands. LORD WAVENEY said, its object MINUTES.

– Public BILLS, Second Readingwas to know whether the Government

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Sheriffs

Substitute (Scotland) [273]. would be disposed to supplement the Committee-Report-Supreme Court of Judicavoluntary assistance that had been given, ture Act (1873) Amendment (No. 2) [162] and extend the system of sanataria for the women and children of the European

Restriction on Penal Actions and Remission Colonel Sir Frederic Fitz

of Penalties * [267]; Department of Science

and Art * (283). wygram, lately on Indian service, had Considered as amendedThird ReadingSupreme given £10,000 to be applied for the Court of Judicature Act (1873) Amendment benefit of the wives and children of (No. 2) (re-comm.) [162]; National School

Teachers Residences (Ireland) * [279), and Cavalry troops only for a sanatarium;

passed. and he wished to know whether Her Third Reading Unseaworthy Ships [281]; Majesty's Government were disposed to Agricultural Holdings (England)

* 277); assist further that voluntary contribution

Ecclesiastical Fees Redistribution *'[282], and in providing sanataria for the women

passed. and children of the troops generally,

Withdrawn-Jersey Courts * [107]. independent of the regimental and divisional sanataria ?


MAJESTY'S SHIP “JACKAL." he had no information as to the circum

QUESTION stances connected with the fund just referred to by the noble Lord; but he MR. YEAMAN asked the First Lord could at once say that he did not think of the Admiralty, Whether it is true, as encouragement should be given by the reported in the “Northern Ensign Government of India to any proposal for newspaper of the 31st day of July, that unnecessarily separating the women from Her Majesty's ship “Jackal,” being sent their husbands. Of course, the health of to Wick for the protection of the fisheries, women and children was attended to at her services were refused, on Friday the the stations as well as that of the men ; 30th of July, when they were earnestly but a plan for sending the women and asked on behalf of fishing boats and children to separate sanataria was one fishermen exposed to imminent peril on which could not be encouraged, that coast, on the ground that a vessel of

troops ?

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