originated a still more important reform | Bill to make provision for giving further

in the land tenure of the country.

COLONEL BRISE said, he was not disposed to admit the authority of the hon. Member who had just sat down (Mr. Fawcett) upon questions of agriculture. He (Colonel Brise) looked upon the Bill as one for extending the Lincolnshire and other existing customs, and for meeting exceptional cases of hardship. He believed that the time had not yet come for compulsory measures. If, however, they were legislating only for some particular part of the country, or for the Eastern Counties only, then compulsory legislation, so far as the third class of improvements was concerned, would be no great injury to the owner, and of very great importance to the occupier. As to other improvements, however, such compulsion would be very unfair to the landlord in some cases. It would be unfair to the landlord, for instance, where he had bought up the custom, or where there had before been no custom in existence. He believed, upon the whole, that the Government had acted in the interests of the occupier in not giving way to many of the Amendments which had been brought forward.

powers to the Board of Trade for stopping Unseaworthy Ships. This measure the Government recommends to Parliament on the postponement of their larger and more complete measure for the amendment of the Merchant Shipping Acts. The House is aware that that complete measure proposed means for checking the overloading of ships; for making more definite the liability of shipowners in respect to loss of life and damage to property at sea; for consolidating, or, rather, codifying the provisions for discipline at sea; and for improving the mode of inquiry into casualties at sea. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Plimsoll) also introduced a Bill on this subject, but mainly on opposite principles-a Bill for supplementing the classification of ships by private registry offices, through the Government undertaking to complete the classification and periodical survey of all ships. I believe that the Government Bill was framed on the right principle. It was framed on the principle on which all our legislation has hitherto been based—namely, that of enforcing responsibility on those who conduct the Mercantile Marine service of this country to take all reasonable precaution or means in their power to protect the lives of those who are employed by them at sea. Unfortunately, the measure, by delay, has lacked time for thorough disMR. NEWDEGATE thanked Her cussion and for passage through ParMajesty's Government for having intro-liament this Session, and it has had, duced the measure, and believed that, considering the improvements it had received in Committee, it would be of great benefit to the country. He would advise the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sandwich, "in good agricultural language," not to "hurry any man's cattle."

LORD ELCHO accused the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) of departing from his principles as a political economist, in advocating compulsion versus freedom of contract.

consequently, to be postponed. I believe the Bill of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby-and in that opinion I shall I think be borne out by the great majority in this House-is based on wrong principles. ["No, no!"] Well, I merely wish to point out to Parliament the difference between the two Bills. That of the hon. Member for Derby attempted not only the punishment of offenders, but a needless and harassing Government constant inspection and warranty of all unclassed ships, and on the part of Government it actually

Committee report Progress; to sit undertook the conduct of the merchant again To-morrow.

UNSEAWORTHY SHIPS BILL.

LEAVE. FIRST READING.

SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: Sir, I rise to move for leave to introduce a

shipping itself; and, as I think, a Bill based on that principle, so far from securing life at sea, tends rather to a greater loss of life at sea, by removing the principal check of the liability of those who are conducting the service, and the responsibility of seeing to all

to prevent a great number of unsea- | have adopted with regard to legislation worthy ships from going to sea, in the upon Merchant Shipping has placed the interval between this time and the pass- House in considerable difficulty; but, ing of a measure next Session of a more being in this difficulty, I think it is the comprehensive character. And it will duty of the House of Commons to see also encourage Parliament to give how we can best extricate ourselves from the Government these powers for the it calmly and dispassionately, doing full occasion, that they are powers which justice to the great interests of life and can in no case be vexatious to owners of property involved. I am sure that it good ships, and can only be a terror to will be the universal wish of the House those who own bad ships. In any ge- that we should approach the question, neral measure there must be provisions as I have stated, with calmness, and that of a more or less harassing character to in a matter so vitally affecting the lives the owners of good ships; but special of seamen and the prosperity of our powers to selected officers to detain Merchant Shipping we should exclude glaringly overloaded ships from going Party considerations. The hours remainto sea till righted will not interfere ing at the end of the Session are so few with well-conducted trade. There is that I think we shall all be disposed to also this advantage-that the second approach this question in a business-like provision enables seamen themselves fashion, and to consider the proposals of to set in motion the inspecting officers Her Majesty's Government upon their without the preliminary of having to merits at the present juncture. I shall incur the charge of breaking the law, not follow the right hon. Gentleman the and without the embarrassment of hav- President of the Board of Trade in his ing to give security for costs, though contrast between the original Bill of the liable to punishment for frivolous com- Government and the Bill introduced by plaints. I can only conclude by saying the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Plimthat these preventive measures for in- soll). I think it is almost unfortunate creasing the security of life at sea are, that he should at this particular moment in our opinion, of the first importance; have introduced such a comparison at and I know perfectly well that there all. As regards the Government Bill it will be no difference of opinion upon is withdrawn; as regards the Bill of the either side of the House, that Govern- hon. Member for Derby, that is still bement should have adequate powers for fore the House; but everyone must be such an object. We are all equally aware that to carry it at the present anxious for the increased security of the period of the Session would be an exlives of our seamen in a necessarily ceedingly difficult, if not an impossible perilous and most important national task. At the same time, I wish to say service. We can only differ as to the that I should consider personally that best means, and the necessary powers the hon. Member for Derby, and those and interference of Government for who are in favour of his Bill, will be the attainment of that end. I hope perfectly in their right if they run their Parliament will consent to give the Go-Bill against the Government Bill, and vernment the powers which they ask for on the present occasion. I can speak for the sincerity and earnestness of the Government in wishing to carry out their full and complete measure on the earliest occasion next Session. I deeply regret the delays which have postponed the measure which I had in my charge, and I can only promise, on behalf of the Board of Trade, that if Parliament will now give these special powers to the Government, they will be resolutely and effectively carried out in the Department itself. I now move for leave to introduce the Bill.

MR. GOSCHEN: Mr. Speaker, the course which Her Majesty's Government

attempt to press it upon the acceptance of Parliament. But while I say that they will be perfectly in their right if they follow that course, I think it would be to be deplored if those who do not hold the view that it is wise to accept a compulsory classification or the regulated load line, should allow their judgment now to be biassed either by the withdrawal of the Government Bill, or by the incidents which have taken place since in connection with this agitation. Let the Bill of the hon. Member for Derby stand upon its merits, as he has proposed it, and as others may be able to sustain it by argument. And, on the other hand, I am sure the House of

and I think it may be fairly repeated that he himself would wish it to be thoroughly understood in the country that the Bill was withdrawn not on account of any pressure of the shipowners in this House to prevent or obstruct its discussion, or from any obstruction offered to it here, but on account of other causes. Let me recall in one sentence only the There was

Commons will not allow itself to be in- | With regard to the withdrawal of their fluenced in its opinion upon this great Bill, the right hon. Gentleman the Prequestion by the temporary incidents sident of the Board of Trade has stated which have taken place upon it. It appears to me that what we have to do to-day is to proceed to consider what may be the best means of extricating ourselves from the difficulty in which we are placed. Of course, it is hard upon the shipowners that at the close of the Session they have to consider a proposal on the spur of the moment such as has been made by Her Majesty's Go-history of that discussion. vernment; and while I give every credit but one day for the second reading of to the right hon. Gentleman the Presi- the Bill, and when an adjournment was dent of the Board of Trade for endea- moved, my hon. Friend the Member for vouring to remedy, to a certain extent, Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), sitting on the withdrawal of the Bill of the Govern- this bench, supported the Government ment, at the same time we must regret in requesting that the Motion for Adthat that withdrawal was not accom-journment should be withdrawn. Therepanied at the time by an explanation. fore, there was no obstruction on that The Bill was withdrawn by the right occasion. On the next occasion, when. hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister with the Bill went into Committee, there was but a formal and ordinary expression a discussion only till 9 o'clock, and the of regret, and the Government would rest of the evening was spent simply in have saved themselves very considerable postponing the consideration of two reproach and comment if, when the Bill clauses, because the right hon. Gentlewas withdrawn, they had stated that man the President of the Board of Trade they would substitute some such mea- did not entirely understand them himsure like the present for it. It would self. The third night was spent on the have facilitated, I think, the discussion "advance note ;" and that that discusof the measure in the House of Com- sion was rational was shown by the Gomons, and, still more, it might have vernment themselves abandoning their prevented that display of feeling out-of-proposal at the conclusion of the evendoors which, creditable as it is in many respects, sometimes impedes calm and dispassionate legislation. I think the Government will feel that this display of feeling is due to a certain extent to their having withdrawn the Bill without showing that they intended to deal with the question until the current ran so high that they were compelled to introduce a Bill to deal temporarily with the subject. But we have now the announcement of the Bill, and I do not, as far as I can judge on the first announcement of its provisions-I do not think it is of so stringent a character as we were led to believe it would be by the short explanation which fell from the Prime Minister the other evening. I am sure that the shipowners will consider it with every desire to strengthen the hands of the Government, feeling, LORD ESLINGTON: I think, Sir, as they will do, that it is directed, not that under the peculiar circumstances in against the good shipowners, but against which this subject stands, the course the bad ones. I venture most humbly taken by the Government in regard to to bespeak an impartial consideration it is the only one they could take in view for the measure of the Government. of the naturally excited state of the

ing. On the next night great progress was made in the Bill, the 30th clause having been reached. I feel it right to again state, therefore, that no action of the House of Commons with regard to the Government Bill has at all obstructed its being carried through this House. If it has been withdrawn, it has been withdrawn without any of these extraneous causes; but I am anxious not to allude to those causes, because I think our duty now is to discuss the proposals of the Government with every desire, notwithstanding any temporary inconvenience, to pass a measure even in the few hours that remain of the Session— a measure which may tend to save life and to remove that imputation from our Merchant Service which late events have, to a certain extent, cast upon it.

public mind caused by what I must con- sional Bill, a stop-gap, but is not a sider the unfortunate withdrawal of the thorough Bill. I trust that the increased Merchant Shipping Bill. But I would power of detaining ships may, in the express once more the great regret I feel course of the next few months, be exerthat the management of Public Business cised with discretion, but, at the same could not have been so conducted as to time, with firmness. We have, however, admit of the discussion and of the pass- a distinct pledge from Government that ing of the Merchant Shipping Bill, and at the earliest opportunity next Session I wish to point out to the House, in the whole of this question shall be bea few sentences, that, in my humble fore us. Pending the introduction of a opinion, the course now proposed is comprehensive measure, I trust we shall not unattended with inconvenience. This not allow ourselves to proceed to legisis the second time that a Merchant late upon this difficult and delicate subShipping Bill- a measure of a very ject, agitated by anything like emotional important character in its bearing upon feelings or sensational observations. This that great interest, and not sufficient, is a subject of a technical and difficult as I think, for the purposes of en- character. I can speak to that effect suring safety-has been passed at the from some experience-and we cannot end of the Session, at a time when the expect this House as a body, or the namonth of August is about to commence, tion at large, to enter into the consideraand we are in this position-that before tions and appreciate the difficulties that we can have an opportunity of consider- surround the solution of this great quesing deliberately the requirements of the tion. If we make a mistake we may Merchant service, we are called on to inflict an irreparable injury on perhaps increase the powers of the Board of the greatest interest the world has ever Trade. I say, then, that this question seen, and upon which the commerce of is in a most unsatisfactory position. It the country is so dependent. It is, is unsatisfactory, because it works an in- therefore, most desirable that the subjustice on shipowners, and is not effica-ject should be dealt with in a calm, imcious for the saving of life. I say it partial, judicial spirit. I implore the advisedly, and I maintain that no Go-House-though it may be somewhat vernment surveyor-though I imagine it is the object of the Government to secure the services of the most competent men to conduct this difficult duty with competent skill-that, however, is a Treasury question, and no statutory enactment is necessary for paying them salaries_adequate to secure such men; but I say that no Government survey will be satisfactory, and that no Government surveyor can execute this difficult duty with a just regard for the shipowners and for the safety of human life, unless he has a thorough knowledge of the history and antecedents of the ship. That knowledge was possessed by the surveyors of the several associations; but to lay your hands on the defects, it is necessary that there should be the means of tracing the ship back to her origin, in order to know where defects exist in her, and, when necessary, to order the necessary repairs. No Government survey of a ship can decide fairly for the owner or fairly for the crew, and therefore a Government survey requires to be discussed in all its bearings, and I think the Government have acted wisely in taking these powers for a limited time. The Bill is a provi

excited at this moment-to consider the question deliberately. I think the Board of Trade deserve credit for the course they have taken; but the powers they ask for are difficult to exercise, and we are going now to increase the difficulty and the responsibility which attach to them. I trust, however, they will be entrusted to men competent to perform them, and that the Government will not hesitate, from considerations of cost, to obtain the best assistance they can get.

MR. DILLWYN : I do not mean, Sir, to remark upon the conduct of the Government in withdrawing the Bill, or to compare that which the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Trade has just asked leave to introduce with that of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Plimsoll), which stands for a second reading to-morrow. It is not my intention either to oppose the introduction of the Government measure, to which, however, I confess I see some grave objections. Our time is very limited for discussion, and it would be absurd to enter now on the discussion of its