to the present time, required that there should be no legal prohibition of that nature; and such a prohibition was as absurd as it was impolitic, since it was impracticable to prevent the coin from being exported or melted whenever the temptation to export or melt it was sufficiently strong. He had thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to this subject, because, if the present price of standard silver in the market should continue, the silver coin would follow the course which the gold coin had already taken, and entirely disappear. What plan would then be adopted by the right hon. gentleman, he knew not, unless, consistently with his system of forcing a circulation of paper pounds, he should endeavour to introduce a currency of paper shillings.

Mr. Wellesley Pole wished to say a few words on this subject. The hon. gentle man would recollect, that when the new coinage was under consideration in the last parliament, it appeared to be considered by every one as expedient, in order to prevent the two metals clashing as coin, to make the coin of one of the metals of standard value, and the coin of the other to serve as a kind of counters in exchange. In this proposition he understood that the hon. gentleman concurred, and that the only difference between them was as to the amount of the seigniorage on the silver coin for the purpose in question; it being the opinion of government, that 6 per cent would be sufficient, while the hon. gentleman, if he recollected right, thought that a seigniorage somewhat higher he believed 10 per cent would be better. [Mr. Grenfell, in explanation, denied having expressed any such opinion.] He had certainly understood the hon. gentleman to have stated it as his opinion, that the seigniorage should be fixed at 10 per cent rather than at 6 per cent; but he now stood corrected, The hon. gentleman must still admit the correctness of the principle, that one precious metal should be made the standard of value, and that the other metals should be considered as counters, and be reduced in value, in order to prevent them from coming into competition with that which was the standard. This was the only plan that could be adopted for preserving the coin in the country; and yet this very principle, which the hon. gentleman approved, had produced that effect which

he represented as so ridiculous. This he held to be highly inconsistent-at the same time to admit the principle, and to ridicule the effect.-There was another consideration which bore directly on the question, but which had been entirely overlooked by the hon. gentleman. By another regulation there was an additional guard provided for the preservation of the silver coin, namely, that that coin should not be considered a legal tender for more than 40s.-He agreed with the hon. gentleman in thinking that the law against the exportation of the coin of the realm was worse than foolish; for, as it stood at present, it was only an incentive to crime. This defect in the law had not escaped the observation of his majesty's ministers; but what could they do? The law had not been made by them; it had existed from time immemorial. It appeared to him that it would form a very proper subject for investigation by a committee. The hon. gentleman had stated, and he believed the statement correct, that the present price at which silver stood in the market, was 5s. 7d. per ounce-that is, 1d. per ounce above the Mint price. The consequence was, that for bullion which at the Mint price was worth only 66s. 67s. would be given in the market. This result had been represented in a ludicrous light by the hon. gentleman, but for his own part, if he wanted a pound of silver ready weighed, he would rather take the bullion at a penny more than be at the trouble of weighing it.

There was another circumstance which had been overlooked, but which he thought worthy of notice, as it tended to show how fluctuating the price of silver was, and how difficult it was to counteract the effects of accidental cir cumstances. At present the price of dollars was 2d. per ounce lower than that of standard silver, and yet two ounces of dollars sold higher than the same quantity of standard silver. The truth was, that at present there was a great demand for dollars: that demand, however, was temporary, and he had no doubt would soon be over. The present high price of silver, he hoped, would soon fall; but if, contrary to his expectations, it should still continue, he thought it would be proper to appoint a committee to inquire into the subject. If it should appear to that committee that there was so great a rise in the price of bullion as to endan ger the coin, he knew only one remedy

that could be applied, and that was a legislative measure. It was his firm conviction, however, that the present seigniorage was sufficient to protect the coin. With regard to that part of the hon. gentleman's speech, which involved the question of our currency, and which was more immediately directed against his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, he regretted that he could not follow him. He would state candidly and honestly, that he had endeavoured to make himself master of the question, but that he always found it necessary to speak with great diffidence on the subject. He perceived, indeed, that no two persons agreed in their views of the subject. He had carefully read all the pamphlets that professed to discuss the question, and he found that no two of them agreed; he bad consulted the Bank directors, and their opinions did not agree; the two sides of that House could not agree in their views of the question, and even on the same side no two members could agree. If he should be appointed a member of the committee which was to be appointed, he would certainly give the subject all the attention he could, believing, in his conscience, that this vital question could never be satisfactorily eluci dated, but by a diligent and laborious committee, who forgetting all party feelings, should enter on the investigation of it with a sincere determination to ascertain, if possible, its real merits.

Mr. Wilson said, that he felt considerable embarrassment on rising to give his opinion upon a question of such great importance, but trusted to the indulgence of the House for his want of being adequately acquainted with a subject, which a right hon. gentleman on the floor had admitted himself hardly equal to. He was aware that the Bank restriction was an unpopular subject. It might, no doubt, be matter of consideration for the House whether or no any restriction should be put upon the extension of the issue of bank paper; but he was himself decidedly of opinion, that should this be the case, and the issue be too much circumscribed, the trade of the country would suffer in proportion. With respect to the specie, it must be liable, from the state of the exchanges, to continual fluctuation. The present high price of silver was, no doubt, attributable to the great demand for India, America, and other foreign parts; and if specie were now generally in cir

culation, its progressive diminution by exportation must produce much inconve nience to the country. In answer to a question from an hon. member on the other side, what was to be done, if all the silver should be melted down? he said, have recourse, as before, to tokens of a value that would not offer temptation to melt or export; yet he doubted, whether that would not be objected to by hon. members opposite, and whether it would not be directly attacked as a fraud upon the public, and as giving them only 15s. in the pound, or something like a dividend on their just demands.

Lord Archibald Hamilton said, he rose to notice an observation or two, which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman opposite. He understood that right hon. gentleman to say, that the proportion fixed at the Mint was such as to secure the silver coin from being melted down. But it was necessary to bear in mind, that that proportion was settled with reference to gold, and not with reference to paper. He would ask, whether it was possible to fix any proportion which would secure the silver coin against the depreciation of paper? If he meant to say, that the proportion was fixed with relation to gold, then he would say this was of no effect: if it was fixed to guard against the depreciation of paper, then he would say the right hon. gentleman had attempted to do that which was impossible. If it referred to paper-he would ask him, whether, if paper were now depreciated to that extent which they had already seen, he thought it would be possible to secure the silver coin? The assertion of the right hon. gentleman then, either had nothing to do with the question, or it could not be made good. The right hon. gentleman had enlarged on the inconsistencies of political economists on this question; but he thought the right hon. gentleman might find still greater inconsistencies in the honourable and right hon. gentlemen who voted with each other on the question. They all recollected the resolution of a right hon. gentleman, for it was not the resolution of the House, that the pound note and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, at the very time that it was notorious, that a guinea was worth a great deal more, and when ministers were permitting that to be done, which, by this resolution, it was said there was no occasion for doing. He should like to know what the opinion

of ministers was when the sovereigns | were coined. If they thought the sovereigns would not stay in the country, then they were guilty of a criminal act, in putting the country to an unnecessary expense; and if they thought that they would remain in the country, they were guilty of an egregious mistake. There was but one evil-the Bank restriction; and there could be but one cure-the convertibility of paper into the proper coin of the realm.

Mr. Tierney said, that the right hon. the master of the Mint had totally mistaken the object of his hon. friend. His hon. friend wished to show that the market price of silver had risen above that established by the Mint regulation, and that, in consequence, there was a danger of all our silver coin being carried out of the country. In reply to that, the right hon. gentleman had made a variety of statements and remarks no way contradicting his hon. friend's assertion, and bearing no relation whatever to the subject. The right hon. gentleman had expressed, as the only source of consolation for the country, his hope, that the great drainage of the silver currency, which he admitted, would not continue. The right hon. gentleman boasted of having studied the subject deeply; of having given it every consideration of which his mind had been capable; but he had concluded with declaring that all his reflection and investigation, could find no remedy but the appoint ment of a committee of that House. The right hon. gentleman said, he had read all the pamphlets that had been written on the subject. He would advise him to read one more-which it appeared he had not seen, and which had come into his own hands only that morning. He could assure the right hon. gentleman it would reward his pains. It was a letter to the right hon. Robert Peel, from one of his constituents, a member of the university of Oxford. Who the constituent of Mr. Peel was, he did not know, but he would say of him, whoever he was, that he was an honour to the University of Oxford. The right hon. gentleman had told them he was one of his majesty's ministers, who had always thought they would best get out of their difficulties by going into a committee. And this was the opinion which the right hon. gentleman had come to, after exercising all the intelligence which God had given him. If this had always been the opinion of the right hon.

gentleman, God knew what a minority he must have been in!

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Mr. W. Pole said, that the right hon. gentleman had attributed to him what he never uttered. He had not said that he had always thought it would be best to go into a committee; but that he now thought that, in the situation in which things stood, the best thing would be a committee. The right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to exhibit him in a ridiculous light. He did not disapprove of the course adopted by the right hon. gentleman on this occasion. It was his usual practice, when he could not answer any thing, to have recourse to ridicule. There was no man who was more happy than the right hon. gentleman when he chose to avail himself of ridicule. However, if he had the advantage of the ment, he did not envy the right hon. gentleman the advantage which he derived from his powers of ridicule; though he was sorry that he himself had come in for the first share of it. He had endeavoured to give such information as it was in his power to state, and he had stated his conscientious opinion that the fairest way to reconcile all the clashing interests and opinions would be to go into a committee. The right hon. gentleman had closed his speech with some advice, of which he should endeavour to avail himself; but he could assure him it was not with a view of making a parade of reading, that he had mentioned the books and pamphlets read by him. This was, of all things, the farthest from his thoughts. He had merely stated them to show the difficulties in which the subject was involved, and as a reason for his thinking that a matter of such intricacy would be the best settled by the intelligence of the House, chosen, as he hoped it would be, by ballot, which would give every member the power of putting into the glass the names he really thought best calculated for the service.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, February 1.

DUTCH COLONIES-CESSION OF JAVA.] The Marquis of Lansdowne rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move an address to the Prince Regent, for copies of the instructions transmitted by his majesty's secretary of state to the governor of Java, for the surrender of that island to the commissioners appointed by the

Dutch government to receive it; and also for a copy of the protest of sir Thomas Raffles against the proceedings of the Dutch authorities in the Malayan Archipelago, dated the 12th of August, 1818. In bringing forward this motion it was far from his intention now to call in question the principles on which the cession of the Dutch colonies to the government of the Netherlands had been made. Whatever doubts some might entertain of the propriety of that measure, at a time when the Dutch were receiving a great accession of territory in Europe-however much some of them might be disposed to condemn the policy of again restoring the Dutch colonies, that question must now be assumed to be completely precluded. The subject to which he had now to call their lordships attention, was not the principles on which the treaty had been concluded, but the manner of its execution, in which he considered the honour, the policy, and the interests of the country to have been involved. The circumstance which induced him to submit the present motion to their lordships had its origin in our occupation of the island of Java. It would be recollected, that in the year 1811, lord Minto, then governorgeneral of India, despatched an expedition to Java, which took possession of that settlement. Whatever degree of merit belonged to that eminent statesman, for the exertions he made to reduce Java, and place it under the British dominion, still greater merit must be ascribed to the same distinguished person, for establishing in that island a government capable of drawing forth all its resources, and converting the possession into a source of wealth and prosperity for this country. What importance was attached to this conquest, and what advantages were anticipated from it, would be seen by reference to the Speech from the throne in 1812, and by the votes of parliament. Their lordships were doubtless aware, that all the anticipations of advantages from this operation had been more than fulfilled by Java being raised, in a short space of time, to a greater degree of prosperity than any other colony in the Indian seas. To what was this prosperity to be ascribed? Unquestionably to the measures of lord Minto, and to the care and ability of sir Thomas Raffles, to whom his lord ship intrusted the government of the colony. That gentleman established wise regulations, by which industry and com

merce were protected, and full security given to the natives. As soon as the government was settled, it was discovered that there was a population in the interior, of a magnitude and importance either far greater than the Dutch knew of, or than their policy permitted to be known to others. It was found that the inhabitants of the interior amounted to between four and five millions. Some of the princes near the coast had submitted to the Dutch, but others were perfectly independent. With these princes the British government formed treaties of a beneficial nature to this country, while they were at the same time highly advan. tageous to the other parties. It was not necessary that he should enter into the details of these treaties, or describe the beneficial effects of all of them: it would be sufficient if, by way of illustration, he confined himself to one; the unfortunate result of which had been the principal motive for his bringing forward the present motion. Soon after the establishment of the British government in Java, it was discovered that great advantages might be derived from the occupation of the island of Banca, which was most favourably situated for carrying on com. merce with China. The British governor did not attempt to take forcible possession of the island, but finding it under the dominion of the sultan of Palembang, proceeded to negotiate a treaty with that sovereign, by which the island was formally ceded to Great Britain. In return for this cession, the other dominions of the sultan were guaranteed to him. But their lordships would mark what soon ensued. In the course of a few years it was agreed to restore to the Dutch the colonies which had been taken from them in the Indian seas. It was stipulated, that they should have all the colonies which were in their possession in the year 1803. Now, this island of Banca had never been in their possession, and therefore was not included in the terms of the stipulation. A separate article was, however, agreed to, by which Banca was also surrendered to the king of the Netherlands. This cession was made to the Dutch for a valuable consideration, namely, for Cochin; but while we thus obtained the advantage of the possession of Banca, no care was taken to secure the interests of the sultan of Palembang, who consequently claimed that protection to which he was entitled by the treaty. The British governor, who