This is their jurisdiction. They are taking it away from them in this act and are going to regulate this reservation through the State of Wisconsin authorities and regulations. And this is what we do not want. We do not want to lose these rights or lose what they have got. Mr. TAYLOR. Does the gentleman from Wisconsin have questions? Mr. KASTEN MEIER. No, other than to suggest as the chairman has, that you amplify any of your views to us in perhaps a later communication. I also want to add the committee did not undertake-we say this to everyone-to try to notify individuals or organizations but rather through sort of general publicity of the hearing to notify people and, of course, the committee is sorry that some people did not learn of it as soon as others or so recently as to not have an adequate time to prepare for the hearing. But as the chairman suggested, we will be open to later communication on this.

Mr. TAYLOR. Does the gentleman from Michigan have any statement or questions?

Mr. LEMIEUX. Would you like an answer to that statement, sir? Mr. KASTEN MEIER. NO.

Mr. TAYLOR. If you have anything you wish to make

Mr. LEMIEUX. I am very well prepared to give you an answer to that statement.

Mr. TAYLOR. Go ahead and give it.

Mr. LEMIEUX. No. 1, you suggested that we suggest further changes in this bill. I have copies here of stuff that Mr. Edwards has introduced 2 or 3 years ago that never got into the original bill.

Now, I will grant you the amendments we asked for in this new bill were put in there, but not because they wanted to, because we pressured them to. Now, as far as I am concerned, further amendments in this bill would not do us one bit of good.

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I suggest you discuss those with your counsel. He seems to be a man of considerable ability, and if there is any kind of language that you think should be added to the bill to give you more protection, you let him get it in the proper form and submit it to us. Our committee has not acted on this bill yet. It may have been kicked around for 3 or 4 years, but we have not acted. When we do, we would like to have all the information before us.

Mr. LEMIEUX. I would also like to commend you on the statement of notification of people. Now, I received a telegram signed by you— you Mr. Kastenmeier, you-I received a telegram signed by you at noon yesterday, in fact, about 2:30 yesterday requesting our presence at this hearing.

Now, to me this was being slighted a little bit. This telegram should have been-I think it was sent on the 14th and I did not receive it until the 18th.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. As long as you mentioned my name, I must say the other witnesses in this room got no telegram from me. So, you were not slighted. As a matter of fact, you were specially informed when normally you would not have been."

Mr. LEMIEUX. Let me ask you another question.

Mr. TAYLOR. I might say that this hearing was announced in the usual way. On all the other hearings we have had on national parks across the Nation, the main publicity goes out through the newspapers. Mr. LEMIEUX. At this time I would like to put the Bad River Council on record as fully endorsing the Red Cliff Band's position.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much. And if you have anything you want to add to your statement, please forward it to the Committee. Mr. RUPPE. Could I initiate a question or two?

Mr. TAYLOR. The gentleman from Michigan.

Mr. RUPPE. Now, I refer the property that belongs to your tribal organization. Has that been pretty much the same in size in recent years? Have there been any particular sales or any disposals of the property?

Mr. LEMIEUX. In the last 4 or 5 years we have not sold any land to any outsiders. By outsiders I mean mills or timber people. The tribal council has undertaken a project here in the past 3 years to purchase this land themselves and consolidate our holdings of tribal lands. In other words, we buy all the land we can now.

Mr. RUPPE. And there have not been any sales in recent years, to the best of your knowledge, to individuals for camp sites or homes or recreational purposes?

Mr. LEMIEUX. Well, we have the same proposal as Red Cliff has. We lease our lands at present.

Mr. RUPPE. Perhaps I am going over the same grounds I went over with the gentleman preceding you but assuming the conditions in northern Wisconsin are the same as they are in northern Michigan, and year round there is a good deal of unemployment and certainly in the off season there is a substantial percentage of unemployment, do you see under certain conditions where perhaps this park would provide, say, an economic opportunity for your friends today and perhaps for your young people coming along in the future years to come?

Mr. LEMIEUX. No, I do not. To go further into this, you are talking about employment. We have created our own employment on the Bad River Reservation.

Now, I will go as far as to say this. We cannot come into the employment office and get a good high paying job. If we walk in, they have got a job cutting pulp. This is where we go.

Mr. RUPPE. May I ask whether you have a pretty good percentage of your people employed?

Mr. LEMIEUX. At the present time we have a very high rate of employment but, as I stated before, we have created our own employment. Mr. RUPPE. Which is something you certainly should be congratulated for. Do you see any conditions at all under which the park would be acceptable or anything that could be legislated for the protection of your physical property, your fishing and your hunting rights while writing into the legislation something that would very definitely afford your young people some economic opportunity, some jobs, let us say, not just the cleanup detail in the years to come?

Mr. LEMIEUX. At this time I do not see any. I am taking the same position that Mr. Gordon has taken, that our people, even in years to come, will be picking up paper and beer cans.

Mr. RUPPE. So from your point of view, you would rather not suggest conditions under which the park would be acceptable to you. You would, perhaps, rather see the Interior Department come up with suggestions from our side, let us say, from the Interior Department side, that would be presented to you rather than the other way around. Mr. LEMIEUX. True.

Mr. RUPPE. Thank you very much for your statement.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

Now we get back on our list.

Glenn Anderson, executive secretary, Wisconsin Federation of Cooperatives.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Mr. Chairman, I note that Mr. Vernon Struck is here to represent Mr. Anderson. I know Mr. Struck and Mr. Anderson as representatives of the Wisconsin Association of Cooperatives.

Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Struck, we welcome you before our subcommittee. STATEMENT OF VERNON STRUCK, REPRESENTING THE WISCONSIN FEDERATION OF COOPERATIVES

Mr. STRUCK. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, it is a pleasure for me to be here today to represent the Wisconsin Federation of Cooperatives. For your information, the Wisconsin Federation of Cooperatives consists of over 400 cooperative companies throughout the State of Wisconsin that provide goods and services for approximately 350,000 member patrons. It is from this wide spectrum of interest and membership that we vigorously support the proposed Apostle Islands Lakeshore bill. We would like to mention briefly or draw from the report of Professor Fine, professor, School of Commerce at the University of Wisconsin, who, incidentally, I studied under a number of years ago, and I know of his fine qualifications. Professor Fine tells us that there will be $7 million a year generated in this project and the short-term loss in taxes and the longterm investment of approximately $2.9 million for the proper development of this area, and this will be more than returned, in our best judgment, many times over. This alone augurs well for support of this particular project.

However, I think that we should also go beyond this consideration. and that the preservation of the unspoiled beauty of this part of the lakeshore, Superior shoreline, the forests, the islands, and even the marshes deserve all citizen's support. We sincerely believe that with the passage of this bill, our generation will be remembered by those who follow us with grateful hearts, that we had enough vision to protect these cherished resources.

Now, with your permission, from the excellent and well documented booklet, "Wildlife, People and the Land," we would like to quote the following statement:

In the rush toward "progress", we are disorganizing the land much faster than we are appreciating the natural community and our dependence upon it. This lack of appreciation, or simply ignorance, is one of the most destructive forces in the world. Whether it's the "I don't care" or "I don't know" kind doesn't matter-ignorance allowed exploitation of Wisconsin's timber resource, allowed erosion to ruin much agricultural land, allowed over-browsing to replace the choicest deer foods with "second-best".

As our human populations increase, our problems will also increase. We cannot afford to let the term "renewable resources" salve our conscience, and then still dump wastes into streams. Our renewable resources can be destroyed or reduced to the point where they cannot renew themselves fast enough to meet the demands of the future.

And I submit to you as we move into this era of affluence with the tremendous pressure on our natural resources we are going to need this type of project. Thank you.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much for a fine statement. Are there any questions?

Mr. Henry Kolka, Wisconsin State University.

STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY KOLKA, WISCONSIN STATE UNIVERSITY, REPRESENTING WISCONSIN COUNCIL OF SCIENTIFIC AREAS

Mr. KOLKA. Members of the committee, Chairman Taylor, I am going to just read some excerpts but before I go into the body of the supporting testimony, I would like to have you become aware of the group that I represent.

We are a State council today. We started out as a board. I am a member of the Preservation for Scientific Areas, representative from the University of Wisconsin. Wisconsin State University, Milwaukee Museum, private colleges, Department of Resources and Department of Public Instruction make up this committee. It is our responsibility to set aside scientific areas that can be used for making inventories, studying the process of nature as it changes from one ecological pattern to another, and likewise looking for better ways of managing that which we endorse as being the best that we can have on our landscape at the present time.

And, of course, our most important interest here is a good repository. We work with any group that can give us security and guarantee for a long period of time because none of these scientific areas have a great deal of value unless they are of more permanent nature.

I would like to read the resolution. We moved this resolution 2 years ago and readdressed it and reedited it:

Moved that the State Scientific Areas Preservation Council endorse the House bill establishing the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore. However, it urges amendments that will enhance and assure the preservation of wilderness characteristics and sites of outstanding scientific value on the mainland as well as on the islands in Lake Superior.

There has been a considerable amount of inventoried research in the region, particularly in the islands, so consequently, we are a little bit concerned with the way the park is going to be set up, and we would like to have the Department of the Interior when this bill passes, at least give us an opportunity to advise on some of the cultural features that go into a park, like road sites, so that some particular rare area will not be destroyed by following through just engineering practices which do not have much heart generally. They just go places and they do a nice job while they do it.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much. Just one question by the gentleman from Wisconsin."

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Mr. Kolka, you already have a list of amendments that you would have for the bill?

Mr. KOLKA. They are in the recommendation, yes. They are very general and very simple. We recommend that roads not be proliferated extensively, and I know that is part of your plan. We just really endorse your thinking. And we also recommend rather than

going down to the lake with frequent roads, that you just hit high sides that overlook lakes which gives you the vista that the tourist wants and does not destroy the vegetation that would be definitely involved if you go down to the lakeshore area.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. You have already submitted these to the committee?

Mr. KOLKA. Yes.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Thank you.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much.
(Mr. Kolka's full statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF HENRY W. KOLKA, REPRESENTATIVE, STATE SCIENTIFIC AREAS
PRESERVATION COUNCIL

I am appearing on behalf of the Wisconsin's Scientific Areas Preservation Council and I wish to place on record a resolution first adopted by the Council at its regular meeting in 1967 when this bill was projected for a hearing in Ashland, Wisconsin on June 1, 1967 as Senate Bill 778 and since re-addressed for the present occasion.

"Moved that the State Scientific Areas Preservation Council endorse the House Bill establishing the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore, however it urges amendments that will enhance and assure the preservation of wilderness characteristics and sites of outstanding scientific values on the mainland as well as on the islands in Lake Superior.”

In support of this resolution I wish to elaborate on the following specifics. First, I must emphasize the outstanding scientific contribution that has already resoluted from the wilderness quality of the islands and Lake Superior. This is supported by publications by Beals, Vogl and Cottam, both separately and in collaboration with one another. Because some of the islands have had almost no disturbance, including no recorded population of deer, they have contributed in a truly incomparable way to our understanding of the probably natural vegetation in other parts of Wisconsin, and the northern lake states generally, if they had not been so wildly disturbed first by cutting and more recently by population pressure. We wish to emphasize the seriousness of the threat to continued scientific usefulness of these unique tracks unless ownership is obtained of a type that guarantee their continued production in essentially the state in which they are now preserved. We feel that acquisitions by the federal government and management by the Department of Interior will assure the scientific values.

Secondly, we want to place on record an equal concern for the preservation of certain portions of the virgin forests on the mainland near the shores of Lake Superior. Because of the presence of the lake few of the fires that ravaged much of Bayfield county burned all the way through these stands. In addition, the ownership by the Redcliff Indian Reservation has limited the disturbance by cutting. We endorse the proposal that these lands be continued in preservation by the Department of Interior but urge that the proposed road to the shore-line areas be relocated further back from the Lake Superior shore line itself, utilizing the high lands as look-offs, sites which for the most part are not biologically unique. In this request we are urging that the Bureau of Indian Affairs agree to then grant a lease of larger acreage to the Department of Interior if not in the immediate future at least at some later date so that the road might approach the Lake Superior shore in 2 or 3 locations, so as to preserve the wilderness characteristics of this lake shore as much as possible. Free access to the shore by automobile is undesireable and should instead be provided by frequent hiking trails through the virgin forests.

These proposals are offered to further enhance and to preserve the quality of this wilderness tract which evidently promoted the originators of the Apostle Islands National Lake Shore bills to so designate the area. With respect to the roads location we seriously urge that the Scientific Areas Preservation Council be consulted as to its siting to ensure that no outstanding biological sites on the mainland are lost.

Mr. TAYLOR. There may be some people here who will not be able to come back this afternoon. There may be some others who will find it very inconvenient to come back this afternoon. Right now, we will take anyone who would like to submit a complete statement for the