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templated any measure of relief for those | Mr. Buller to be Clerk to the Privy Counwho would be affected by it?
cil had lately been noticed in another
place; and the statement in reply was, OFFICES IN REVERSION Bill.] The that this place had been long ago given to order of the day for the second reading Mr. Buller in reversion, even while he of this Bill being read,
was an infant. This was what hardly any Earl Grosvenor observed, that he had a body had been aware of, and was a proof strong aversion to these temporary measures of the secret way in which these transacon so important a subject. He should not tions were carried on. Mr. Buller might oppose the second reading of the Bill, in the be a proper person for the office: he knew hopes that their lordships would agree to nothing about that, either one way or the an extension of its principle, and continue other ; but if he was, the public was so the prohibition of granting offices in re far fortunate, and more fortunate than it version for 20 years. He was thoroughly deserved to be, since it had permitted this convinced that these grants ought to be practice to continue so long. He maincompletely abolished. It was, in his opi- iained that its abolition would be most imnion, a measure of the greatest conse- portant, as recognizing the principle of quence, though he knew that it had been economy, besides the actual saving which described by some as one of very triling it would produce. The noble earl then importance, and by persons, too, who adverted in the reason assigned in the might have had the best reason to be sa- preamble for passing this temporary meatisfied of its great importance. It was sure, which was, ihat something consufficient, however, for his argument, that nected with the subject was under consithe public thought it a measure of the last deration by a committee of the other importance; and, in his opinion, unless | House. The reason was an absurd one, as these grants were abolished, the constitu- far as it could be exected to operate with tion itself would be endangered. He had, their lordships. They could not regularly on a former occasion, brought this ques: take notice of what was under consideration before their lordships, and he was tion in the other House ; but they all not yet discouraged. On whatever side knew, that the subject referred to was that of the House he might find himself, he of sinecure offices. And the truth really should still persevere till the object was was, that these, though distinct from reaccomplished. He was satisfied, that un- versions in one sense, were nearly conless the practice of granting offices in this nected with them in another. Tbey were way was abolished, the people would feel inseparably linked together. They were a perpetual distrust of the executive go- the vultures that preyed on the vitals of vernment. There was hardly any indi- the country, and as they had lived so they vidual, he should suppose, but wished the ought to die together. He hoped he abolition of the practice, except such as should not be told by the noble and expected to profit by its continuance. learned lord on the woolsack, as an excuse Their lordships had before recognized the for himself, that many distinguished principle of the measure of abolition. chancellors had granted offices in reverBut it had been argued, that no material sion. It did not follow, therefore, that saving was to be expected from the adop- they approved of the practice, or that the tion of the measure. It had not been ad- noble and learned lord himself approved vocated merely on the ground of the im- of it. That most excellent man and dismediate saving it would produce; but sup- tinguished judge, sir Matthew Hale, had posing it had, he contended, that the ar- decried the practice; lord Coke had gument was far from being unfounded. also decried it; and was it to be doubted He was convinced that the measure was but lord Hardwicke and other eminent highly important, even with a view to im- chancellors disapproved of it, and would mediate economy. If the abolition of the have said so if ihe occasion had arisen ? practice had taken place at the beginning If this practice were abolished, that would of the present reign, several places which indeed be a day of jubilee-of real jubilee now existed would have been altogether for the people: but without this, all abolished, and there would have been a would be discontent and disappointment. saving to the state of many millions. A The Prince Regent would have to regret strong objection to these reversions also the pernicious advice which had led him was, the clandestine manner in which to treat with indifference, not to say with they were given. The appointment of contempt and scorn, propositions of such
154 importance as this. The noble earl con- contemplation of a dearth of food. A re. cluded by declaring, that when the Bill verend prelate, whom he did not then came to be committed, he would move to in his place, but whose attention was parextend the period of prohibition to twenty ticularly called to that part of Ireland years.
where the dread of scarcity was most preThe Bill was then read a second time, valent, must be aware, that, in his diocese, and ordered to be committed the first the poor were suffering great distress from Thursday after the recess.
want of provisions. Now, in his view of
the subject, the legislature, by putting a Irish DistillerIES_SCARCITY OP Pro. stop to the distillation from corn in IreVisions.] The Earl of Darnley rose to land, would produce very beneficial effects. call their lordships' serious attention to the The encouragement of distillation in Irepresent situation of the labouring poor of land, he considered a strange and singular Ireland. In the first place he was anxious, kind of policy. Among all the evils as far as possible, to obviate any objections which that country suffered-among all which might be made against the general the causes which were said to produce that principle of the motion which he should want of industry, that spirit of insubordisubmit to their lordships. He thought, nation to the laws, which had been so from the present situation of Ireland, he much complained of_nothing operated was justified in calling the attention of par- more powerfully than the facility with liament towards it: but he must at the which ihe Irish peasantry were enabled to same time observe, that if he believed any indulge in the use of spirituous liquors. real scarcity of provisions existed in that At a former period, when the distillery country at ihe present moment, he would was stopped, he had occasion to go to Ire. repress his feelings, and not bring the sub- land, and he noticed, in the lower orders, ject before the House ; because he knew, a very manifest and praiseworthy alterain such a case, that the interference of tion, Instead of the frequent instances their lordships could not effect any great of intoxication, which he had formerly alleviation of the evil. Believing, how witnessed, be saw very few indeed during ever, as be did, from the best information, his residence in Ireland at that time. He, that no real scarcity, no great deficiency therefore, thought, that, when the prohiin the necessaries of life, had actually bition was followed by such excellent contaken place in that quarter of the empire- sequences, the government had not conbelieving that no immediate danger was sulted the advantage of the country, in the to be apprehended-he felt it a duty in way all governments should do, by again cumbent on him to state that which he permitting distillation to an unlimited ex. knew to be a fact, namely, that certain tent to take place. He might be told, districts were suffering all the miseries and that the proposition he was about to make evils attendant on a dearth of provisions, came too late, for the distiller had already though no general scarcity existed. Many purchased bis annual stock of grain, and noble lords, from their residence in Ireland, had even commenced his preparatory promight probably be enabled to give more
To a certain extent this might be circumstantial information on the subject the fact. But the answer was, why did not than he could, whose knowledge was ne- government look into the matter sooner ? cessarily derived from others. But he When they saw the rising price of grain, was convinced of the accuracy of the why did they not interfere? They had a statements which he held in his hand, rising market before them; and one of the which were written by persons on the consequences of their not having interspot, and from them it would appear, that posed was, that oats had now arrived at the high price of provisions and the diffi- 303. per barrel. He should be sorry lo culty of procuring subsistence in particu- propose any thing which could interfere Jar districts, had been attended with very with the agricultural interests of Ireland'; bad consequences.-The noble earl here but the present was an extreme case, and read extracts from two letters, describing deserved immediate attention. In consethe distress which existed in the districts quence of the alarm which had been exwhere they were written, but the names of cited in particular parts of Ireland, the which he did not state. The facts narrat. price of provisions had been enbanced far ed in these letters were undoubted, and a beyond any thing which the circumconsiderable alarm had been excited stances could justify; and, as parliament through different parts of the country in were competent to entertain any measure which might seem calculated to remedy / was a proposition which he must deny. the evil, he thought it was the duty of He had recently perused a written state. their lordships, even now, to consider the ment of the prices, in the principal marpropriety of temporarily stopping the kets, particularly in the articles of the first Corn Distillation. He did not mean to as- necessity, of oats, wheat, and potatoes. sert, that this was the best measure that In some places, oats were at 138. 6d. the could be resorted to--but such it certainly barrel. At Bantry, they were at 14s. at appeared to him; and if the noble lords one time, and afterwards at 12s. 6d.: on opposite would satisfy him by shewing the very same day, they were as bigh as that they had done, or were doing, all that 25s. at the great mart of Cork. Potatoes the necessity of the case required; or if, were 3s. 6d. the stone at Cork, a price in opposition to what he had advanced, never known before, while in Dublin they they would prove that no scarcity what- were only 1s. The rise, therefore, was far ever existed in Ireland, he would very from being universal, and there existed no cheerfully withdraw his motion. His apprehension of a scarcity. The propolordship concluded by reading the three sition of stopping the distilleries would Resolutions which he intended to propose not act as a remedy, particularly now the for the adoption of the House, namely, season was nearly at its close, and the “ Ist. That the present high price of pro- stock in a state, from the processes it had visions in Ireland has produced great dis- gone through, so as to be unfit for the tress to the labouring poor in that country. food of man. The government of Ireland 2dly. That it is the duty of the House io had earlier and better information on the take into consideration the best means of subject than either himself or the noble removing the evil. 3dly. That it is expe-ear, and it was highly reprehensible if it dient, for that purpose, to suspend the dis- did not adopt every practicable expedient tillation from grain, while such high price to avert the dangers contemplated by the continues.”
noble earl. The principal cause, in his The Earl of Clancarty said, he was fully opinion, for a rise in the prices of grain inclined to give the noble earl every de- in Ireland, was the great exportations of gree of credit on the score of purity of in- corn from that country, and particularly tention, in coming forward on the present to Great Britain. It had been stated, that occasion; but it was with much regret he the proportion of wheat imported here felt obliged to oppose the adoption of the from Ireland was about one-tenth; but of noble earl's propositions. Their lord late years, the proportion, in the article ships were not now to be reminded of the of wheat alone, amounted to one third of great, the extreme delicacy with which the whole of the British importation! To the agitation of all questions connected this the measure proposed by a right hon. with the subsistence of the population was baronet in another House, greatly contri. attended. They must feel the great im- buted. He meant not to impugn the meaportance of having it alleged in so grave a sure, it was of advantage not only to Iréplace, that the executive government had land, but to the empire at large (Hear, neglected its duty on an occasion of such bear! from the marquis of Lansdown). vital importance. But without the exist- As to any serious apprehensions of a ence of any actual scarcity, as the noble scarcity'in Ireland, he was far from apearl had avowed his belief of, and without prehending any. The noble duke at the which be must contend that any measure head of that goverument did not sleep would be injurious, he thought it much to upon other occasions, and he was not be lamented, that the subject was thus likely to slumber on this. Judging and brought forward. His information, which feeling as he did of the noble earl's prohe had from the best sources, from almost position, he should take the liberty to daily conversing with persons just arrived, move, " That this House do now adjourn." or from letters almost daily received from The Marquis of Lansdowne took the opIreland, led him to draw very different portunity to offer a few general remarks conclusions from those adopted by the on the nature and tendency of the measure noble earl. There was no danger to be adverted to in terms of approbation by apprehended, or even the appearance of the noble earl, which had been proposed any degree of scarcity taking place, at by a right hon. friend of his (sir J. Newleast during the present year in that port) in another place; the effect would couutry; that an universal rise in the be more to quality and render Ireland a prices of grain had taken place in Ireland, grand granary for supply, and almost an
inexhaustible source of supply to the em. cers, and was immediately served with a pire at large. A system of frequent and writ by one of them. I stated to him my reciprocal comercialintercourse between situation in regard to the order of the the sister islands, was one, he thought, Committee, and shewed him the order, as the most to be wished for, as the system my protection, but all to no purpose. He likely to be productive of the greatest re- said I must go with him, and after going ciprocal advantage.
up stairs to speak to my family, who were Viscount Mountjoy made a few remarks much distressed, I went with him accordin support of what had fallen from the ingly to a lock-up-house in Black-friars. earl of Clancarty.
road. Lord Holland shortly observed, that Did you shew him the order before he from what had transpired of the subject, took you from your house ?-I did. he felt it rather difficult to understand What is the officer's name?-I llave upon what principle, and, with reference since understood it to be Hindson. to the degree of scarcity to be apprehend- At what o'clock were you arrested ?ed, upon what ground it was deemed ad- At about a quarter past twelve. visable to stop the distilleries in England, Where is your house ? - No. 1, Walcot. that would not equally apply to Ireland. place, Lambeth,
The motion for an adjournment was How long had you been absent from home then carried without a division.
before the time of your return ?-From about half past nine o'clock-[and here the
witness mentioned the various places he HOUSE OF COMMONS.
called at, and transacted business, till the Tuesday, March 24.
period of his return, in consequence of Breach of Privilege-COMPLAINT RE- having forgotten the papers before menSPECTING A WITNESS BEING Arrested.] tioned.] Mr. Eden moved, that the order of the day, Mr. Campbell was ordered to remain at for taking into consideration the matter the bar, and Mr. Hindson to be called; of the Complaint made to the House, that but on Mr. Wilson, a Member, rising to Mr. Campbell being summoned to attend ask information from the Speaker, as to the Committee appointed to enquire into the proper course of proceeding, the witthe manner in which Sentences of Trans- ness was ordered to withdraw. portation have been executed, and into the Mr. Wilson then stated some objection effects which have been produced by that that appeared to him? In reply to which, mode of punishment, had been arrested The Speaker said, it was the established by a Sheriff's Officer yesterday, on his course of the House first to ascertain, by way to the House, be now read.
evidence, the nature of the facts, and then The order being read, Mr. Campbell it was competent for any hon. gentleman was called to the bar, and interrogated by to propose what course he thought fit to the Speaker.
be adopted. Q. Your name, sir, is Campbell?-A. The parties were then called in, and Yes, Robert Campbell.
Hindson, the officer, examined : Did you receive an order to attend a Your name is Hindson ?-Ye3, Committee of the House of Commons yes
You are a sheriff's officer?-I am. terday?-Yes, I did.
Did you arrest Mr. Campbell yesterIn writing ? - In writing.
day?-İ did. (The Order was here put in and read. Where, and at what time? At No. 1, It was signed by Mr. Eden, as Chairman Walcot-place, Lambeth, about 12 o'clock. of the Committee, and ordered Mr. Camp- On what process, a civil or criminal bell to attend.)
action ?-On a special Capias for debt. Were you prevented from attending by Did he at the time allege any reason any circumstance, and what?-I was. why the arrest should not take place ?By what?-By an arrest.
Yes, he did. He stated that he was called Where?-In my own house. I had on to attend a Committee of the House of been out in the morning, and a little past Commons, and produced a written paper twelve o'clock returned home for some to that effect, such as I had never seen papers which might assist me in answer before. My writ included two persons of ing questions which might be put to me the name of Campbell (John and Robert). by the Committee, and which I had for- and the order did not specify the christian gotten. I found there three sheriff's offi- name.
What did you do accordingly?-We tend the Committee at one, and was passwalked together to Blackfriars-road, where ing by the Horse-guards at five minutes I procured a special messenger to go to alter twelve, nothing could be more proMr. Campbell's attorney, to desire bim to bable than that he had returned for the attend the Chairman of the Committee. I purpose he had forgotten. went myself to Messrs. Dan and Crossland, The Chancellor of the Erchequer said, if the solicitors, who employed me, and the witness had been bona fide on his way stated the case to Mr. Dan, whom I saw, to the House, its privilege ought unquesand shewed him the order which I had pro- tionably to be extended to him; but his cured from Mr. Campbell for that purpose; being found at home might naturally Mr. Dan said he did not think it was a enough lead the officer to suspect, when legal protection, and directed me not to the order was produced, that it was some discharge my prisoner till a proper enquiry trick if the man was passing the Horseshould be made. From him I went to guards at twelve o'clock, and went home, Mr. James, the under-sheriff of Surrey, as he had stated, for a paper which he had who informed me, that no similar case had forgotten; all this might be considered as occurred during the time he had been in in progress towards his attending the Com• office, and requested to go for information mittee, and the privilege of the House to Mr. Burchell, the under sheriff of Mid- ought to be extended to him. He condlesex. I saw Mr. Burchell, who gave his ceived it must be admitted, unless the veopinion, that being in Surrey, it did not racity of the witness were questioned, that come within the jurisdiction of the House; he was entitled to the privilege of the and that I ought to wait till a new order House. was made, which would probably be this Mr. Wilson observed, he had been someday. I then went back and saw Mr. where else all the morning previous to bis Campbell. I told him that Mr. Dan re- passing the Horse-guards atiwelve o'clock, fused to grant the discharge, and also on business not connected with the Comwhat had passed between me and the un- mittee. der-sheriffs.
Mr. Lockhart thought, the order of the Did you take any steps to ascertain if House, which was in his possession, ought Mr. Campbell was the person summoned of itself to have protected him from an by the Commiltec ? -I never was in the arrest. House of Commons before, or nearer to it The question was then put and carried. than the court of King's-bench, in West- Mr. Eden was of opinion that no cenminster-hall. I did not enquire into this, sure was deserved by the unfortunate as my time was occupied, as I have stated, sheriff's officer, and he should therefore and I was served with the notice to attend not propose to proceed with any severity here to-day, soon after I got home. against him; but he thought Mr. Dan, the
What is the amount of the debt? — attorney, ought to be ordered to attend to 6,9601. and upwards. If it had fallen on receive a reprimand for the language me, it would have been utter ruin to my- which he had held with respect to the self and family.
order. He would therefore move that Mr. The parties being withdrawn,
Dan he ordered to attend. Mr. Eden, without offering any obser- The Speaker wished to know, if the hon. yations, moved—“ That Mr. Campbell gentleman would pursue this motion bebe allowed the privileges of this House, fore the House decided on giving an order and be discharged from his arrest.” for the attendance of Hindson again to
Mr. Wilson did not think him entitled morrow. to this, as the case did not come exactly Mr. Stephen, before Mr. Dan was orwithin their privileges, which he was as dered to attend, wished to observe that anxious to preserve as any man. He then there had appeared no intention on bis part stated the facts as disclosed in the preced- to infringe the privileges of the House. He ing evidence, and contended, that Mr. would put it to them, if when the amount Campbell being at that hour returning to of the debt was considered, it could be his own house, could not be said to be in expected that any man would take upon progress to the Committee of the House himself the heavy responsibility of orderof Commons.
ing a discharge of the arrest, unless he was Mr. Eden felt that there could be no certain that the order would justify his doubt on the question before the House. doing so. As Mr. Campbell had been ordered to at- Mr. Tierney thought Mr. Dan ought at