Now if he was rightly informed, gold was diminishing in price, and therefore the attempt to continue the Bill only shewed that ministers were determined to have such a Bill in all cases, and at any rate. Though the price of gold was now actually diminished, it was however by no means in consequence of the Bill of last session, because gold rose in price for some months after it passed, and the greatest distress was experienced in the western parts of England, particularly for want of silver to carry on the common concerns of trade; and in most towns the inhabitants were under the necessity of issuing out tokens of their own, to avoid a total stagnation of the most ordinary business. Another reason against renewing the Bill, was, that it had failed in one of its principal objects, viz. that of preventing more than one-and-twenty-shillings being given for a guinea. The Bill only provided against giving more than a Banknote and a shilling for a guinea; but by changing the Bank of England for country bank-notes, you might add as many shillings to those as you pleased, and could not be hurt for it; so that it was daily and hourly evaded with impunity. As a proof of this, there had only one conviction taken place since passing the Act, and that was of a man seduced into the transaction by a police-officer sent on purpose to trepan him into the fact. The provisions of the Act had not been accomplished, nor would be accomplished: and he hoped, therefore, the House would exercise its discretion, before it gave a sanction to the renewal of such a Bill. As to the new clause proposed by the right hon. gentleman, and which went not only materially to alter the Bill, but also to substitute a fictitious circulating medium, as a legal tender for payment, in lieu of the standard coin of the realm, he conjured the House to pause before they consented to entertain a proposition so ruinous to the credit and to the vital interests of the country. Lord Castlereagh was not disposed at present to go into any arguments on the Bill, as frequent opportunities would hereafter occur for the discussion of its merits. He should only notice that the noble lord seemed to adhere to the opinions entertained by him last session, and to press his opposition before the Bill was brought in. He wished to correct him in two points, in which he appeared to be under misapprehension with respect to what he (lord_C.)_and his right hon. friend had stated. The reason which he had for not extending the measure to Ireland last session, was on account of the absence of many Irish members, and not from any view that it would not be desirable for that country. He had stated that it was his opinion that the circumstances of Ireland, in a certain degree, varied from those of England, so as to exclude at that time its introduction. As to the supposed pledge of his right hon. friend, he apprehended, that he had stated quite the reverse of what the noble lord had imputed to him; for his right hon. friend had stated, that if nothing short of making Bank notes a legal tender would serve to correct the evil, a remedy to that extent must be applied. He thought, that so long as the Bank of England were prohi bited by law from paying their notes in gold, the legislature owed it to the subject to protect him against any demands which were not under these circumstances equitable; because, by not affording that protection, great injustice might be done to the subjects of the realm. In that opinion his right hon. friend had coincided. With respect to the practice in Belfast and its vicinity, the noble lord was misinformed, for the practice was the reverse of what he had stated; contracts were made there to pay in pounds sterling, and not in gold. Guineas had ceased to be the circulating medium, and therefore the subject could not pay his debts in gold; and ought to be protected by law from being called upon to do that which it was totally out of his power to effect. Lord Folkestone explained, that he had a clear recollection on both the points, in which the noble lord had supposed him to be in error. Mr. Tierney would not oppose the motion for leave to bring in the Bill, but observed that it was very evident from the speech of the right hon. gentleman himself, that the country was already in the situation which had been predicted last session, namely, in a situation of moving from bad to worse. He asked in what respect did this measure fall short of making Bank notes a legal tender? The answer was, that they were to be legal tenders only in a court of justice. But what law was there which could compel any man to part with his goods or property contrary to his inclination? The fact was, that this Bill went to affect immediately all interests and every class of society. If he March 17, 1812. [14 13] Outstanding Demands on the Bank. Mr. Manning objected to the motion; and stated, that the Bill which had been Mr. Johnstone would vote for the motion, brought in that night was not introduced at the desire or request of the Bank of though he disclaimed all idea of imputation England, any more than the Bill of last upon the conduct of the Bank Directors, session, commonly called Lord Stanhope's who had shewn more moderation in the Bill. He spoke not in the character of a issue of paper-money than had been prac Bank Director, but from himself alone. In tised in any other country, when that exthat view, he could not see any necessity pedient had been adopted. He could not for the committee which was proposed. agree with his right hon. friend, that the If, indeed, the Bank Directors had desired Bank were masters of the ministers: but the present measure, he should think it a the contrary. It was the fault, not of the If the Bank sufficient reason for the appointment of a Bank but of parliament, that things were The actual amount of the in their present situation. committee. was were left to itself, he should have no fear issue of Bank notes at present 22,500,000l. which, of course, did not in- of the proposition of a legal tender. He If any member wished the country to know what were the clude Bank tokens. moved for any particular return, he would assets of the Bank independent of what second it. He was surprised that any consisted in government securities, which member should so far under-value the se- latter (in Exchequer Bills) amounted at this eurities of the Bank: as every acre of moment to no less a sum than 7,500,0001. land in the country might be considered There was no doubt that the Bank could as forming a part of the securities for the discharge all its debts, as it related to itThere was a debt self; but the connection with government Exchequer Bills. owing from government to the Bank of was a different thing; and a time would 11,600,000l. and the two loans, which al- come when that would be a serious contogether amounted to near twenty mil-sideration. Every nation that had adopted lions. This was sufficient security. The a practice similar to the present, had run Exchequer Bills, as he had before observed, stood on the most solid ground. He thought that parliament was right in calling, from time to time, for the amount of Bank notes in circulation, and for other particulars, but he could see no reason for entering into such a committee as the hon. member proposed. As to what had been said of the sordid and selfish views of the Bank, many matters of great public interest had been assisted by the liberality of the management of the Bank; and he Mr. Marryatt thought the reason for opchallenged the right hon. gentleman to show a single instance in which the pub-posing the motion extraordinary as urged lic had not received their portion of the by the deputy governor of the Bank, (Mr. Did any public body come profits said to have been made by that cor- Manning), namely, that the Bank had not required it. poration. to parliament and ask for such an enquiry into their concerns? Nothing was more unlikely. He was far from wishing to overthrow the credit of the Bank, and he thought its credit would be best supported by a fair enquiry. What was said of the Bank would be as applicable to govern Mr. H. Thornton objected to the motion. The amount of Exchequer Bills and loans, &c. was generally known. If the question stood on the solvency of the Bank, then it ought to go to the committee that a report might be made, which would shew that an opinion adverse to the Bank's solvency a career of bankruptcy; and the effect must be serious, if men were compelled to take a Bank note as a legal tender. The mischief had been done by parliament itself in compelling the Bank to advance money when they were making extraordinary issues of paper, which had raised the paper issue up to 22 millions. Government were the means of doing this, in consequence of the embarrassments which they had experienced from the deficiencies of the late Mr. Goldsmid. ment respecting sinecure places. In both instances the parties would be benefitted; and gain more credit by enquiry. The longer we went on in the present fatal paper system, the worse should we find our situation. The deputy governor of the Bank was last year against the legal tender; now he had a little changed his opinion. What it might be next year it was not possible to tell. One circumstance was important. A Bill lay on the table to make the embezzlement of property a higher crime, in consequence of the repeated failures of bankers, and other occurrences. The misconduct of the bankers was owing in a great degree to the change of the practice at the Bank since the restrictions on their cash pay. ments. After that restriction they offered their discounts in an unprecedented manner, and the bankers lost sight of all prudence and circumspection: the results of which had produced astonishing occurrences. The discount system had been carried to an extent almost incredible. Every failure of this sort had been owing to the conduct of the Bank of England; whereas, formerly, the bankruptcy of a banker was a very rare thing. That of Fordyce, many years back, was still talked of: such an event was formerly thought to be like a dreadful fire, or a plague: fit to be registered in a chronological table. But now, by the new plan, in the course of eleven years, there had been eleven bankers in the Gazette, out of the sixty in London. Their failures were likely to be as common as those of underwriters or any other traders whatever. Every one of these bankrupt bankers had kept a discount account with the Bank of England. He had not the list in his pocket, or he could read the proofs of his assertion to the House. None had failed who did not carry on such accounts. He viewed the Bank as useful and absolutely necessary, and on that account felt that any abuse of it ought to be guarded against. He knew indeed that the governor and directors were bound by an oath, but it was an oath which related to their duties only as a corporate body. Mr. Manning explained, and re-stated, that lord Stanhope's Bill was not desired by the Bank. doubts of the Bank's solvency, a good reason would be furnished for appointing a committee; but he could not understand his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney), when he called the Bank rich and prosperous, and afterwards said they might be in a state of bankruptcy. The truth was, that the Bank had it not in their power at the present moment to pay their debts in bullion, not having sufficient in their possession; and it was useless to endeavour to make them perform impossibilities. He believed that only a few bankers applied to the Bank for discounts, since it would rather affect their credit to do so, as it would affect that of an eminent merchant. As the motion might tend to excite distrust in the country with respect to the solvency of the Bank, he could not give it his support. It Mr. Hibbert supported the motion. would be a great evil to make a Bank-note a legal tender. He bore testimony to the honourable conduct of the Bank Directors, who, he believed, acted from the purest ideas of supporting commerce; but he thought that there would be great doubts in the public mind, unless parliament appointed a committee, as they had done in 1797. Mr. Abercromby begged to call the attention of the House to the admission made by an hon. Bank Director (Mr. Baring) who acknowledged that perseverance in the present system would be attended with the ultimate ruin of the country, and yet contended, that not persevering in it would be equally destructive, because it would prevent us from vigorously prosecuting the war. Surely, when men of so much experience involved themselves in such evident contradictions, it was reasonable that some enquiry should be made. There was no guarantee that the Bank of England should not either increase their debt or diminish the small quantity of bullion remaining in their hands. When to these circumstances was subjoined, the declaration of the deputy governor of the Bank of England, that every acre of land in the country was pledged for the payment of their notes, he thought there could be no hesitation in appointing the committee. Mr. Manning expiained that he had said, Mr. Baring said, that if we went on that his own land as well as that of every year after year borrowing, while we dimi- other proprietor, was answerable in a due nished our means of repayment, the nation proportion for the payment of the Exchelike an individual, must come to a bank-quer Bills, which was a public debt of the ruptcy. If there were any reasonable nation. Mr. Baring said, the observation he had made was, that there was not a sufficiency of bullion to enable the Bank to resume cash payments. Mr. Tierney, in reply, insisted that the issue of Bank notes had been greatly augmented since the year 1797, and as Exchequer Bills were secured by the notes, the landed property of the country was put in jeopardy at the will of the directors of the Bank of England. He begged to know if the other side of the House would consent to the production of an account shewing the quantity of Exchequer Bills purchased by the Bank of England from government in the public market, which had been hitherto with-held? to 5th Jan. 1812, specifying the sum in each year. Mr. Manning thought this motion an unnecessary interference with the internal concerns of the Bank. Every one knew what those dividends had been. Mr. Barham, although he objected to the former motion, supported this, on the ground that all possible information on the state of the Bank should be afforded to the public. Mr. Grenfell stated, that the bonuses divided among the proprietors of Bank stock, since 1787, amounted to 32 per cent. on the capital. Mr. Baring thought the motion unnecessary. It would not give the House any information that was not already in their possession. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in an swer to the declaration of an hon. and learned gentleman, that all the land of the Mr. Marryatt contended, that it was country might be confiscated to pay the never intended by the restrictions on the Exchequer Bills in the possession of the payment in specie, that the Bank should Bank, observed, that it might as well be make the large sum which they had made said, that a gentleman possessed of an es- out of the public distress. He attributed tate of 10,000l. a year, and having a mort- their unwillingness to show the state in gage of 10,000l. upon it, ran a risk of hav- which they were, not to any doubt of their ing all his land confiscated; for the Bank solvency, but to their being ashamed of could not possess more Exchequer Bills their profits. There was a provision in than were issued by government, viz. 43 the charter of the Bank of England which or 44 millions. On the subject of the mo- required that a meeting should be called tion, he thought that on the right hon. twice a year, at which meeting the profits gentleman's own showing it ought not to of the Company should be exhibited. This be acceded to; for the right hon. gentle- provision had hitherto not been complied man asserted that the Bank was an extra-with; no doubt lest the public should be vagantly overgrown and rich corporation. made acquainted with the enormous profits What necessity then for an enquiry into divided by the proprietors. its situation? As to the security for Bank notes, it was ample. Besides the assets in the hands of the Bank, it should be recollected, that Bank notes were receivable at the Exchequer, and that double the whole amount in circulation was received there yearly. Mr. Tierney, in explanation, said, that he had not represented the Bank as great and flourishing, and abounding in wealth. He allowed that they had made great profits; but his next motion would shew how he thought they had dissipated those profits. In consequence of the restrictions imposed on their payment in specie, the Bank had certainly made enormous profits; but these they had divided among themselves, and for aught he and the country knew, had left nothing for their creditors. The motion was put, and negatived without a division. Mr. Tierney then moved for an account of all sums divided by the Bank of England, on their capital, frøm 5th Jan. 1787, (VOL. XXII.) The motion was then negatived without a division. PLYMOUTH BREAKWATER.] Mr. Lushington brought up the report of the Committee of Supply. On the motion for agreeing to the resolution for granting 80,000l. to commence a Breakwater in Plymouth Sound, Sir Home Popham said:-Mr. Speaker, I did not presume to trespass upon the patience of the House, when it was in a committee on the subject of Plymouth Breakwater. It was in deference, Sir, to the many senior and much more enlightened officers who are now in your presence; I avail myself, however, of this opportunity to record my sentiments on the subject. I am anxious to do so, as two reports have been industriously circulated, which have no foundation; the first, that I intended to resist the grant. On the contrary, Sir, I think too much credit cannot be given to the First Lord of the Ad(C) [20 miralty for bringing forward this measure; professional men have a great difference of and I think there is no officer in the Bri- opinion; indeed, Sir, the very men whose tish navy who will resist the application reports are upon your table, differ as much of money to give security to the road- as possible. The one says there is ample steads of this country. The second report room within the Breakwater to moor fifty was, that I had a plan of my own to pro- sail of the line, and that they can weigh pose. I really, Sir, have no such thing in at any time, and with all winds. Another contemplation: I was called upon by the says thirty-six sail of the line; and a government of 1805 to give an opinion on third tells you he agrees in general to the the practicability of establishing Break-reports, but he would rather sign for thirty waters, and the best mode of doing it. I sail. The First Lord of the Admiralty last did so, Sir, but it was on condition that night reduced his opinion to twenty: and my opinion should not be publicly acted I do say that if the work can be accomupon, without my going down to Ply-plished to that extent, it will be a wondermouth and examining the Sound tho- ful improvement, and do great honour to roughly to enable me to revise, that opi- the present First Lord. I cannot, Sir, nion; but I recommended, in the strongest carry my views to this extent: I do not manner, that a committee of experienced mean to say that in the area described naval officers, with an engineer, should be within the Breakwater, thirty-six sail of sent there to examine the sets of tides, &c. the line may not be placed in fine weather and a variety of other technicalities with to a mathematical nicety. The reports which it is not necessary to trouble the tell us, that when a ship is taking up her House, as many of its members, both in lee anchor, her gun-room port will be and out of office, have read that report. eight fathom from the weather anchor of Quite satisfied, Sir, that a more able man the ship astern of her: I know that ships than Mr. Rennie cannot be found, I am may lie closer, but that must be in deep equally satisfied of the great advantage water, where there is no chance of ships which the service has derived from the striking upon each other's anchor. The works which Mr. Bentham has continued first great feeling of responsibility will be at Portsmouth and, as civil engineer to running in, and anchoring twenty, or even the navy, I wonder he was not consulted. fifteen sail of the line, in a heavy gale I think the country would have been bet- from the south-south west, in the confined ter satisfied, if they could have seen at- space of one mile by a large quarter wide; tached to the reports, the name of the pre- and if I had the honour of such a charge, sent commander-in-chief at Plymouth, I should feel great uneasiness, and that I the appointment of whom has done so was running into this confined spot under much credit to the present First Lord of some degree of risk. I am not quite satisthe Admiralty. This gallant officer might fied about the effect of this Breakwater have called to his assistance his second in upon Cawsand bay, it may possibly injure command, another very meritorious officer, it; and Cawsand bay has proved a valuand the captain of the St. Salvador, captain able anchorage, under particular circumNash, than whom a more zealous officer, stances. The First Lord of the Admiralty or a better practical seaman, does not exist alluded to the state of the enemy's ships, in any service in the known world.-A that their activity in building was beyond report, backed by such officers, would conception, and although they had now have had the greatest weight in the coun- but one ship of the line in Brest water, try, and would have rendered it unneces- they might soon have thirty-six, the same sary to offer a word upon the subject. number which he proposed to place under When I mention committees, I am com- the Breakwater. If this thirty-six sail of pletely within the practice of the present the line should be caught within this board: for I had the honour of being at- Breakwater, in a strong wind from south tached to a committee, consisting of three to S. S. E. the enemy's fleet might sail flag officers and a captain, to examine a from Brest to Ireland, and reach it, before gun carriage; and if this committee, with (including the time for intelligence) our the exception of myself, had been ap- fleet could well get out of Plymouth pointed to examine Plymouth Sound, and Sound. The distance from Plymouth and report accordingly, the House would have Brest to Ireland, is nearly the same. had such an authority to have acted upon, such a situation of things, Sir, the enemy as would have made all discussion unne- would be invited to invade Ireland, for cessary. This, Sir, is a subject on which who is there who will venture to contra In |