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to assure his Royal Highness, that whilst House to have some distinct knowledge of
“ That in the present state of Ireland, personal allusion to the personage at the it is, in our opinion, impossible that such head of the executive government of the general confidence and good will should country. Such a line of argument was be enjoyed by any administration, the perfectly disorderly, and he had even felt characteristic principle of whose domestic great pain in listening to the speech of the policy, as well as the bond of whose con- noble lord who had spoken first in the denection in office, is the determination not bate, although he had not interrupted him, only not to recommend, but to resist a because that noble lord had not mingled fair and dispassionate consideration of the subject with the matter of his speech those civil disabilities under which his after the commencement. But here was Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in that an allegation, that direct blame was attri. part of the united kingdom still labour, buted to the head of the government. He and of which they complain as most had never heard a grosser infringement of grievous and oppressive.
order, nor any thing more likely to in. “ That we therefore humbly express fluence their deliberations. our anxious hope, that his Royal Highness The Earl of Liverpool spoke to order. may yet be enabled to form an adminis. His noble friend had not charged any one tration, which, by conciliating the affec- with imputing blame to the Prince Retions of all descriptions of the community, gent. He bad said, that the motion in may most effectually call forth the entire volved it,--that it was the natural inresources of the united kingdom, and may ference,-and he had a right to make the afford to his Royal Highness additional observation to that extent. But what was means of conducting to a successful ter- the motion itself? Was it not founded mination a war, in which are involved the upon a private letter? Was it not calling safety, honour, and prosperity of this upon their lordships to debate upon a pricountry."
vate paper ? Viscount Grimston said, he had heard Earl Grey said, that in the few words the speech and motion of the noble lord which he was anxious to address to the with great regret, and he hoped and trust. House, upon a question in which he was ed their lordships would pause before they personally deeply interestedentertained the question, for, notwith- The Earl of Westmoreland asked if the standing the caution and perfect forbear. noble earl was speaking to order? ance exercised by the noble lord, this mo- Earl Grey declared that he was speaktion did impute some blame to an illus- ing to the question of order. No point trious personage at the head of the execu- could stand upon more clear constitutional tive government. There was something ground, than that the name of the sovepeculiar in the whole proceeding. He reign should not be used to influence the believed it was the general usage of that debate in that House, but if it was to
be alleged on the other hand that the act him to implore their attention for a few of the sovereign could not be questioned moments upon the subject of order, When, in that House, although acting as must by the indisposition of the sovereign, the
, always be presumed, by the advice of executive authority was suspended, the responsible advisers, there was an end estates of the realm had invested the of all freedom of debate. Had he Prince Regent with the power to exercise understood any improper allusion or en- the functions of the state. From that mo. quiry to have been made by his noble ment, he should have thought, that the friend, he should have thought it his duty name of his Royal Highness would be mento interrupt him; but his noble friend had tioned in that House with the same respect taken no such course. He had said, that as that of his royal father. But when on he only looked to the responsible advisers a former evening, he saw a noble lord of the crown, and in so doing he had fol. stand up in his place, with a newspaper in lowed the line of his duty. But not so the his hand, proceed to ask questions of a mi, noble lord who followed him-he saw with nister, about a private letter written by pain the course he had taken, and hoped his royal master, he confessed his astonishthat he would have pursued a more par
ment at what be conceived to be a most liamentary line of argument; but not hav. novel and unprecedented proceeding. ing done so, be thought their lordships The Marquis of Douglas rose to call the could not, with propriety, admit such lan- noble and learned lord to order. The obguage to be made use of. The question servations of the noble and learned lord before their lordships was one which was were foreign to the subject, and appeared distinctly in the cognizance of parliament, more like a speech than a decision on and which had been treated of by parlia- point of order. If the noble and learned ment in the best of times; and was neither lord meant to make a speech on the quesmore nor less than an expression of the tion, he appealed to their lordships wher sentiments of that House upon the ineffither he was entitled to proceed at present? ciency of the existing administration, to The Lord Chancellor resumed, and con. act beneficially for his royal highness the tended that he was referring to a material Prince Regent, or for the country; but question of order, with reference to this upon the principles now introduced by the debate. He again reprobated the producnoble viscount, what was done by the so- tion of a newspaper for the purpose of askvereign only through the counsel of his ing, whether an article in it was a letter responsible advisers, could never be ar. from the Prince Regent, and said, that if raigned, nor would the House ever have any confidential servant of his Royal the power to call ministers to account for Highness bad given an answer to such a their proceedings. The noble earl (Liver- question, he would never again have en pool) had complained that no documents tered the same room with that person for were before the House on which to found the purposes of confidential advice. a motion ; but it was not necessary that Lord Holland spoke to order, and arthere should. He did not understand the raigned the conduct of the noble and nature of such a necessity. The notoriety learned lord, in thus referring to a circumof the letters, and the general complexion stance which had taken plate a week ago, of the administration, formed a sufficient and which had no connection with the ground for a motion; and he hoped their question of order. It was at the same time Iordsbips would proceed uninterruptedly most unconstitutional to attempt to influin the discussion, on the sound principles ence the debate by the use of the name of of parliamentary investigation.
the Prince Regent. Lord Boringdon defied any noble lord in The Lord Chancellor said he had been the House to mention a single word which misunderstood, and begged to explain his fell from him, that tended in the remotest meaning. He did not deny that any peer degree, directly or indirectly, to impute in that House had a right to make any the slightest possible blame to, or to con motion he thought proper, with respect to vey the most distant reflection on his the conduct of any administration; but royal highness the Prince Regent. what he meant to say was this, that he
The Lord Chancellor, long as he had sat never would act so unbecoming the person in that House, never felt more pain than placed on that woolsack, as to permit such in the course of this discussion; but hoped language as he sometimes heard--for lae
he that, though it was likely he might trouble was bold to assert, in the face of all the their lordships again, they would allow noble lørds present, that he had never wit
nessed in the course of thirty years parlia- , the arms of the country had been so sucmentary experience, any thing so mon- cessful, ought still to be required to guide
, strous and disorderly as the production of the vessel of the state. He did not cona newspaper in that House. [Here hisceive those successes to be the effects of lordship was interrupted by loud and re- chance, but of the energetic policy of mi. peated cries of Order!]
nisters. He believed that the country was The Marquis of Lansdowne never heard of the same opinion, and did not wish for any thing so disorderly as the language any change of administration at present. made use of by the noble lord on the Such being his sentiments, he conceived woolsack After the observations of the that an Amendment should be made in the noble mover, he did not expect such ani. Address proposed, viz. to leave out all the madversions as had a direct reference to a words alter the words,“ His Majesty's insubject already disposed of. It was the disposition,” for the purpose of inserting duly of every noble lord to insist on a the following: strict adherence to the rules of the House. “ That we beg leave to express our
The Lord Chancellor repeated, that he most grateful thanks to his royal highness should always object to any observation the Prince Regent, for the wisdom and pru. being made in that House having a re- dence with which he has esercised in his ference to his royal highness the Prince Majesty's name, and on his Majesty's Regent, which, in the strict course of parbehalf, the royal authority in these realms. liamentary proceeding, ought not to be To assure his Royal Highness that we have applied to the King himself, whose repre- observed during this period with the sentative he was, and he should certainly greatest satisfaction the uniform success always protest against the production of a that has attended his Majesty's arms, in so newspaper, or part of a newspaper pasted many and such important operations; and on any other paper, into that House in the the beneficial consequences that have recourse of a debate-(Cries of Order, order! sulted from the aid and assistance afforded Hear, hear!)
by his Royal Highness to our allies. Lord Boringdon repeated his statement, That we rely with the utmost confidence that he considered the act of the Prince on bis Royal Highness's constant and Regent as the act of a responsible ad earnest endeavours to promote by every viser.
means in his power the honour and wel. Viscount Grimslon was anxious to be un- fare of the country, and to provide efderstood as not at all intending to bring fectually for its security and prosperity.” the person of the Prince Regent into the The Earl of Durnley expressed his own debate. He had merely conceived the and the country's acknowledgments to the spirit of the motion to turn that way, and noble lord who had brought this importthere was nothing which he would more ant subject under the attention of the deprecale. The Address proposed by the House. In expressing his decided opposinoble lord did certainly impute blame to tion to the amendment suggested, he the ministers of the Regent, for which should not by any means feel himself there appeared not to be the slightest shackled by the assertion, that it was disfoundation. He looked to their proceed. orderly to allude to publications in the ings, which must be, after all, the great news-papers of the day. Any peer of the standard of their qualifications for the si- realm had a distinct and indisputable right, tuation which they held; and he must ac- even without the statement of a single knowledge, that for men so incapable as ground, but the notoriety of existing facts, they were represented, they bad done to submit any proposition he deemed expesome very peculiar and very fortunate dient, more especially at this most critical things. His Majesty's arms had been period, surrounded as the nation was with eminently successful under the administra- dangers, some of which were of our own tion of the present ministers, during the creation. He would not detain the House time that the Prince Regent had been at by impressing upon them a due estimation the head of the government. During that of the talents and means of the enemy time the country had to boast the con- with whom we were contending, or the quest of the islands of Mauritius and of Java, near prospect of a war with the United the total expulsion of Massena and the States, into which we were about to be French from Portugal, the repulse of the plunged by the destructive couosels of the enemy at Tarifa, and lastly, the capture of present ministers of the Prince. He Ciudad Rodrigo. Ministers, under whom would not dwell upon the alarming insur
hLord Morland said, that he wished the
rections in our manufacturing counties, subject which he thought was generally ador upon the scarcity of provisions by milted to be irregular. The letter alluded which the people were threatened. They to was not a document before the House. were matters of minor importance com- If it were an act of state, it was not regupared with that subject before which all larly brought before the House so as to Ötbers sunk into insignificance, he meant entitle any peer to comment upon it. It the Catholic claims. Here we saw one- merely bore upon the face of it the chafourth of the population of the empire in racter of a private communication, of a state of neutrality, (to say the least of it) which no notice could be taken. If it who might be united heart and hand were necessary to the motion of the noble against the common enemy. Under such lord, it ought to have been moved for in circumstances, was it to be tolerated, that the customary mode. a noble lord should be interrogated upon what specific foundation be rested a mo- noble earl had condescended to state how tion which had for its object to interpose such an allusion was disorderly, or what a shield between Great Britain and her order of the House it violated. It was destruction ? The noble viscount (Grim- very easy for any noble lord to get up ston) had violated the most acknowledged and say, “ this is not in order, or that is not principle of debate, and with no other in order," but he thought it was necessary view than improperly to influence the for them to do something more, and shew discussion, had introduced the name of what order of the House was violated. the sovereign (for the Regent to all in. That it was disorderly to introduce the tents was no less,) telling the House that name of the sovereign in a manner to init was in opposition to his wishes. He fluence the decision of the House, was a did not intend to throw any imputation thing which every body knew ; but how on the sacred character of the Regent, it was disorderly to allude to any paper, from whom, for a long series of years, he merely because it was not a document albad received the most gracious attention ; ready before the House, was a point which but thus much he would assert, that who he wished the noble earl to explain. If ever advised his Royal Highness to sign he meant to say, that any of the standing the letter transmitted intermediately to his Orders of the House was violated by so noble friends, recommended an act, the doing, he wished that he would have that baneful consequences of which had hither. Order read which he said was violated. to been very partially experienced. The As to the noble earl's supposition, that it noble viscount had entered upon a very was disorderly for a noble lord in his wide head of argument, but had anxiously speech to allude to any matter of general avoided the most dangerous part of notoriety, or to any paper that was not his ground, the question of Catholic absolutely made a document by having Emancipation, for he well knew (and in- been regularly laid upon the table of the deed who did not know ?') that the person House, he believed that such an idea was now at the head of government had risen, perfectly novel. If this were to be the bad stood, and had expressed his determi- case, a noble lord would not be allowed in dation to stand, upon a system of intoler- future even to make a quotation from the ance; and that those who acted with him classic authors. If he were to attempt it, must be guided by similar views. If he would be immediately called to order then the welfare of the nation depended by some of his Majesty's ministers, who upon concession to the Catholics, (which would exclaim, " What do we know of few were bold enough deliberately to deny,) the classics, were they ever laid upon the was not this a sufficient motive for acceding table of the House ?” No more quotations to the Address proposed ? With regard to must ever be made from Virgil, or from the Letter of the Prince Regent, it was im- Horace; or the noble peer who ventured possible in discussing this subject, not to such quotation would be told, that Virgil advert to it. He wished to be as perfectly and Horace were no regular documents, respectful in his language as he was in his that they were not state papers, and that feelings, but if that letter meant any thing, it was unparliamentary to quote from it meant this
them. He wished that the noble earl The Earl of Liverpool interrupted the would point out what order of the House noble lord by rising to speak to order. had been violated in the allusion of He wished, he said, to prevent the noble which he complained. earl from making further progress on a Lord Mulgrave maintained, that the ob.
jection of his noble friend, was to the in- sions; and yet the Berlin and Milan de. troduction of the name of the person exer- crees never were, and indeed could not cising the sovereign authority. The other have been laid on the table of that House, side of the House assumed a great deal too so as to make them such documents as the much when they asserted, that the letter noble earl required. But this was said to published had been signed by the Regent, be a private letter. What then? Did the since there was no proof of the fact; at noble earl mean to say, that even a private present it appeared only to be a private letter, if it were a matter of general notoletter, which had been published in the riety, and of great importance to the pubnewspapers. If the subject were pressed he lic, could not be alluded to in that House? should take the sense of the House upon it. Supposing that the motion had been dif
Earl Grey requested that the noble lord ferent, and that, instead of the Address who spoke last, if he really meant to take which his noble friend had moved, his mothe opinion of the House, would state ac- tion had been for the production of this curately and clearly what the proposition letter, could it be contended for, on any was. If it were upon the point whether principle of common sense, that it was unor not the name of the Regent should be parliamentary to state the substance of a introduced into debate, undoubtedly he letter, the production of which any noble should vote with the noble lord without a lord thought proper to move for If the moment's hesitation ; but if the question noble lord really wished to take the opi. were, whether the letter which had ap- nion of the House on this point of order, peared in the public prints, bearing the he hoped that he would put it in some signature of the Regent, could with a view shape in which it might be discussed. to support a motion, or to illustrate an ar. Lord Mulgrade said, that he well re. gument, be quoted in debate, he should membered the proceedings of 1807, the vote against the noble lord with as little effect of which seemed calculated to throw hesitation. The objection made by the a scandal on the sovereign himself. The noble lords opposite was differently stated question then was, whether a certain by each of them; and indeed it seemed to pledge required froin ministers by his Ma. arise from an utter confusion of ideas upon jesty, was constitutional or unconstituone of the most plain and simple princi- tional ? The recurrence of that scandal be ples. The introduction of the name of the would use his utmost exertions to prevent. Regent, and the reading of his letter were The course he should pursue, if the subject matters totally distinct, excepting in the were pressed to a voie, would be first to opinions of the opposite side of the House. have it decided whether the name of the The practice of every day shewed, that Regent should be introduced into a discus. his noble friend (lord Darnley) was per- sion. Upon this there could be no disfectly in order. How
many papers were pute, and the next enquiry would be, whe. constantly alluded to and made the subject ther it were regular to read in debate a of discussion in that House, which never letter from a newspaper with the signature were, and some of which never could be of the Regent (which might be a forgery,) made documents, in the manner which and upon which it had not been ascerthe noble earl had mentioned? At different tained whether ministers had given any times, when the House had been called advice to the personage whose name it upon to vote their thanks to lord Welling. purported to bear. ton, (and he would take this occasion of Earl Grey remarked, that the precedent saying, that he believed no noble lord felt of 1807, just cited, was a most unfortunate more strongly than he did, the great merit one for the noble lord, inasmuch as in that of that gallant and most distinguished ge- case had been done exactly what the noble neral,) how frequently did ministers them- lord was this night contending against. If, selves detail to the House the dispatches indeed, the noble lord meant to say, that of lord Wellington, which were certainly the publication of cabinet ministers was a not documents in the sense that the noble scandal, it would be for the friends of the earl now wished to understand the papers noble lord to justify their conduct in this that were to be alluded to in debate; and instance. yet, had any objection ever been made to The Earl of Darnley resumed, and mainThis as disorderly and unparliamentary ? tained that if he so pleased he could, with How often had the Berlin and Milan de perfect regularity, read not only a part, crees been alluded to in that House, and but the whole of the newspaper to the been the principal topic in long discus- ! House. He was not surprized at the free