Brezhnev: We hope to achieve restrictions and not get into arguments whether we get advantages or not. Overall it was the same. I stand by what I pledged even though I could be accused of having given privileges and advantages.

Kissinger: We recognize that the Interim Agreement was fair to both sides. We are not saying that you got the better of the bargain. But, obviously, if we are now to create limits on MIRVed missiles our purpose must be to restrain each side below the buildup to their maximum. Even in our proposal, in the US many would say that we will be going at a much slower rate then the USSR. We are restraining our possibilities much more so than we are asking for your restraint. We would have enormous difficulties with this type of agreement domestically. You may have seen some of the columns in our press yesterday that reflect the views of a vocal minority."

Brezhnev: But we cannot let newspapers decide. We can publish our views in Pravda too.

Gromyko: The New York Times would crucify you for any agreements.

Kissinger: It is not a question of The New York Times but the extent that it reflects views of many of our own people. If we look at the next five years in terms of disparities you could say that the proposal we are making is more favorable for you but we consider it fair. Some will say you can deploy more rapidly than we can.

Brezhnev: I agree that we can deploy rapidly. By tripling our efforts we could catch up but this is not what we want.

Kissinger: We consider our approach as fair in this regard.

Brezhnev: But how many MIRVs do you have and nuclear weapons overseas. If, as you say, you will complete your program within one year you will have several thousands of weapons and we wouldn't have any MIRVs.

Kissinger: What we are saying is that if you go for your maximum capability and we do what we can do on our side then there will be a tendency to have very high warhead numbers on both sides.

year.

Brezhnev: But you say you will complete your program in one

Kissinger: I am saying that within one year's time we can complete our MIRV program up to the level of the proposal we are making. Within some years thereafter we can add another 500 Minuteman but which we would not do if you agree to the numbers we are talking about in our proposal. So you have a certain percentage of your num

6 See, for example, “Nixon Aides Split Over Missile Pact," The New York Times, June 29, 1974, p. 61.

bers in MIRVs and we have about 1⁄2 and we could do more but we would not do so. That is the agreement we are proposing to you.

Brezhnev: But this is an old proposal you made in March.

Kissinger: No, this is different. The figures are different. What we discussed in March in terms of throw weight for the Soviet side the figures would have translated into only about 300 MIRV missiles.

Brezhnev: It is important to preserve equality. You have the Minuteman and you are replacing it with an even more powerful weapon. Kissinger: No, this is not true. We could do it but we are not doing

it.

Brezhnev: But you are covering the silos.

Kissinger: But we are not covering the silos to put in a more powerful missile.

Brezhnev: We would not oppose if you did as long as you stayed within the limit that we agreed.

Kissinger: We do have the right to put in a more powerful missile and we could do it without violations.

Brezhnev: That is what you are doing.

Kissinger: No, the missile we have is essentially the same as the Minuteman II only it has MIRVs. Under the proposal we are making we limited what you had to say about SLBMs so we have proposed that you be limited at 750. Under this you may have more land based than sea based if you choose. We have made the assumption that you will not have MIRVS on SLBMS until the end of the period we are talking about so that in land based there will be near equality.

Brezhnev: But I didn't give you any assurances about our SLBM

MIRV.

Kissinger: No, only you spoke of your plans.

Brezhnev: I told you we would be building a new type but I gave you no assurances.

Kissinger: It does not make any difference under our proposal because our numbers combine sea based and land based. You choose as you see fit between the two.

Brezhnev: Right, that is how we agreed.

Kissinger: Right, we do not need an assurance on sea based.

Brezhnev: Well, it is very hard to talk on that basis of your proposal. We will have to think afresh but I think it violates an underlying principle of our relations.

Nixon: First, as far as accuracy is concerned, when we get into numbers of this magnitude it is almost beyond comprehension. It really doesn't mean too much. The fundamental thing is to reach an agreement.

Brezhnev: I agree. It is important to reach an agreement but it should be one that restrains the race, slows it down. Under the proposal Dr. Kissinger is making the US does not do far less than they would do without an agreement.

Kissinger: No, the US would do far less than we could do without an agreement. The Soviet Union would do somewhat less than they could do otherwise. There would be actual restraint. The restraint would be greater on the US than on the Soviet Union. The other point is, and we do not put this as a threat, but we can MIRV an additional 500 more Minuteman and without an agreement there will be pressures to do so and the Soviet Union should think about that.

Brezhnev: Mr. President, let me say that if what Dr. Kissinger has outlined is the last word on this subject there is no basis for an agreement. I will tell you why. The US has in land based MIRVs now 1200 and with another 2530 on submarines. You already therefore have 4720. You are suggesting 1150 which means 8500 warheads. You are suggesting we have only 750 and with a great effort we can have 4500 warheads. Therefore, you will have 4,000 more than we do.

Dr. Kissinger: With all due respect, you have to add your other warheads. From the 2380 or so you have, 750 will have MIRVs and you will have 1630 single warhead missiles left and if you add that in you have 6100.

Brezhnev: But you are adding things that can't be added. You know full well that if you add up all you have that you have 16,498 nuclear charges including the forward based systems and the strategic force. When I spoke of 1100 for MIRVS we were proceeding on the assumption that we are not going to war. That enabled you to have a certain quantity and you know that in that time we would have to make a very great effort to reach our goal.

Kissinger: Our military would make the argument quite differently.

Brezhnev: And you have a MIRV submarine.

Kissinger: Yes, and we are supposed to stop at our level and we are talking only of the next five years. If you are speaking only of equality we could say you are violating it under this principle.

Brezhnev: How come?

Nixon: If you want equality some in our country will argue that we are giving you the right to do more under the present agreement than we could do.

Brezhnev: But we have the right to do so under the agreement. We agreed on the numbers that were registered in the Protocol and we agreed to overlook your forward bases. I don't see the logic of this argument. The figures I gave you are incontrovertible.

Kissinger: 16,000 is much too high.

Brezhnev: You only have to check this to verify it. I am always very meticulous about figures. I am never erroneous.

Kissinger: It depends on what you count. But we would have to count figures on your side that are comparable. Our first figures we gave you are correct.

Brezhnev: I know that you have certain information on the Soviet Union and I do not like to play word games. What you say leads to inequality. It leads to unilateral advantages and to the arms race.

Kissinger: The basic point is that we are prepared to move more slowly in MIRVS than the USSR.

Brezhnev: What kind of concession is that? You can afford to be tranquil because you are will ahead and don't think we don't know it. Kissinger: In this proposal we are going far beyond the view in our government and this proposal would produce a great debate. It would not be construed as taking advantage of the Soviet Union. Quite the contrary.

are.

Brezhnev: You can't blame me for what Jackson's interpretations

Kissinger: I am not talking about Jackson. He certainly would be one of them. But there are others. I am saying it would be very difficult to get approval and could not be done without a bitter struggle. And some would say we are giving you an advantage in land-based MIRVS. What we have tried to do is to construct a fair proposal that takes into account all factors.

Brezhnev: When we negotiated and signed the previous agreement we took into account all factors including geography. Nothing new has occurred to change this.

Kissinger: As long as we were talking of only single warhead then your level of throw weight was not so much, but with the advent of MIRVS this changes.

Brezhnev: But it is a fact you are using the same missile to increase from 2 to 4 megatons.

Kissinger: This is not yet a fact but it will be done if we cannot agree. This is a fact. Why do you say that the Minuteman is not the

same.

Brezhnev: It is not.

Kissinger: No, but there will be changes.

Brezhnev: How could you complain about violations.

Kissinger: The fact is that your new FSS 19 is half again as large as the Minuteman. It has six warheads.

Brezhnev: Dr. Kissinger, why do you keep inventing things that do not exist. Why do you give me figures where we have six warheads.

Kissinger: You said you would have 4500 under our proposal which limits you to 750. If you divide 4500 by 750 this equals 6 warheads for each missile.

Brezhnev: You know when we have our tests and we know when you have yours. You have your observation ships and you know that we have 3 warheads, not six.

Kissinger: But the figures you gave equal six warheads.

Brezhnev: But this is only if we complete our program. It will be many years of work and you already have five times more than we.

Gromyko: We have heard your argument that if there is no agreement and that if the US goes ahead and that if the USSR goes ahead, that the gap will increase. Let us leave aside this argument. If we resort to this kind of agreement at our discussions we are talking about a broad proliferation of weapons, not disarmament. You say you will forge ahead but we are a big people and the disparity may increase but I hardly think such arguments will instill confidence in our minds about the need for an agreement. We are talking now about an important issue of disarmament and second, generally speaking, on the entire question of limiting MIRVs. On the proposal you raised with our Ambassador, if we accept the point that the agreement already achieved is based on fairness and is equal then why not extend it in its present form because the figures and content do in fact reflect equality and I fully agree with Comrade Brezhnev that all factors must be taken into account. And if we could ask an unbiased judge to weigh all the advantages to the US of forward based systems the advantages would clearly be on the US side. This is a factor of great importance. It takes no great strategist to realize who has the advantage, the US or the USSR. So what is being said by the American side about advantages is not sufficient to characterize the true impact of all the factors that give the US an advantage. It is very hard for us to justify the fairness of the existing agreement if you look at the map and see all your bases in Europe and Asia. The numbers in the existing agreement hardly compensate adequately. When we were negotiating we knew that you had MIRVs and you knew that we would have MIRVS so we agreed to change silos without increasing their dimensions. Now this is being taken out of context and isolated and so turned by you to make equality disappear.

Kissinger: That is not exactly my statement. We tend to repeat each other's arguments about the agreement. We are not saying we will continue to increase the gap but the obvious reality is as follows: without an agreement for two years we would increase the gap. After that two years you will then close the gap under our proposal. After both sides have tens of thousands of warheads as the President said, it doesn't