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HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Tuesday, 27th July, 1875.

MINUTES.] SELECT COMMITTEE - Report
Hampstead Fever and Small Pox Hospital
[No. 363].
PUBLIC BILLS-Resolutions [July 26] reported—
Ordered-First Reading-East India Home
Government (Appointments) * [272]; Sheriffs
Substitute (Scotland) * [273].
Committee-Agricultural Holdings (England)
(re-comm.) [222]-
-R.P.
Report-Local Government Board's Provisional
Orders Confirmation (Abingdon, Barnsley,
&c.) [241-271].
Considered as amended

Traffic Regulation (Dublin) * [246]; Legal Practitioners [46].

Third Reading-Elementary Education Provi-
sional Order Confimation (London) [251];
Local Government Board's Provisional Orders
Confirmation (Abingdon, &c.) [253]; Local

*

Government Board's Provisional Orders Con

firmation (Aberdare, &c.) * [254], and passed. Withdrawn-Church Patronage* [207]; Interments in Churchyards [125]; United Parishes (Scotland) * [201].

The House met at Two of the clock.

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MR. DILLWYN asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he will give precedence over the Government Orders of the Day to the Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment (No. 2) Bill, which was introduced by the honourable Member for Derby, and which stands for Second Reading on Thursday next?

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS-SCREW
STEAMERS CARRYING GRAIN.
QUESTION.

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I will answer frankly and, I hope, fairly, the inquiry of the hon. Gentleman. Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to give precedence to the Bill of the hon. Member for Derby on Thursday next, and for two reasons. In the first place, they could not support that Bill, because, however excellent its motives, it is their opinion that the tendency of that meaMR. WILSON asked the President of sure, if it were carried, would be to the Board of Trade, Whether, in antici- aggravate the evils it affects to remedy; pation of the extra demand for screw and, secondly, because the Bill would steamers for carrying grain during the lead, from its very character and the imcoming winter, in consequence of the portant principles which it involves, to bad harvest prospect in this country, the a protracted discussion, which would Government would bring in a short Bill require time, the want of which this Session for rendering it necessary has obliged Her Majesty's Ministers for all steamers constructed with a double to relinquish for the present the Bill bottom for water ballast to have their they themselves brought forward this stability tested, and a certificate given year. What, in their opinion, is reallowing them, if found safe, to carry quired at this moment is a temporary grain or seed cargoes; also that no measure-a short and temporary measteamer or sailing ships be allowed to sure-which will give more rapid and carry grain or seed without proper and direct action to the Government in the efficient protection and precautions be way of stopping unseaworthy ships, and provided by compartments and shifting a measure having that effect will almost boards, and when necessary a portion immediately be introduced by the Presiof the grain or seed be carried in bags; dent of the Board of Trade. When I also that owners of steamers and sailing say a temporary measure, I mean a meaships be required to fill up and return to sure limited in its operation to one year the Board of Trade a form stating the-first, because the measure may involve maximum depth to which they propose powers which the House may not choose to load their vessels; and, also that the to grant to a Ministry for a permanent attention of the Board of Trade sur-measure; and, secondly, because a temveyors be specially directed to seeing porary measure, or measure for one that steamers' engine and boiler and year will be a material guarantee for bunker space openings are efficiently the introduction, at the earliest possiprotected from the sea, and that they ble opportunity next Session, of a per

manent measure on the subject. Now, | Session, there is very little doubt they with regard to the measure of the hon. will-Tuesdays and Wednesdays for the Member for Derby, I can answer for the remainder of the Session ? Government-that is to say, if I have then the general conduct of affairs in this House-he shall have every fair opportunity of bringing his views before the House and the country. I will take care that the two measures-that of the Government and that of the hon. Member for Derby-shall be introduced simultaneously; that their true principles shall at the same time be brought under the consideration of the House; and I doubt not that with the adequate time and thought which the House will then enjoy and be able to afford we shall come to conclusions advantageous to the public welfare.

MR. SULLIVAN said, that he might be excused if he should ask the Prime Minister or the President of the Board of Trade if he could promise that the Bill which was to be brought in tomorrow would be introduced at an hour which would afford time for an adequate statement on the subject? He put the Question because it would materially affect the course which would be taken on Thursday.

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, if we can get the control of the time to-morrow, of course I will make arrangements with a view to meet the wishes of the hon. Gentleman; but any arrangement I can make will of course depend on the indulgence of the House. We shall do our utmost to bring forward the Bill at a time when there can be a fair expression of opinion; but I must appeal to the indulgence of the House for that purpose.

MR. J. G. TALBOT: Following up the Question of the hon. Member, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman when he proposes to make the Motion for taking Tuesdays and Wednesdays?

MR. DISRAELI: There is a Motion on the Paper for this evening to that effect.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: | I have no right to ask the Question I am about to do, and I will not press it if the right hon. Gentleman says that he is unable to answer me; but it will be very convenient if he informs the House what business he intends to proceed with to-morrow in case the House place at his disposal-as I think, considering the advanced period of the

MR. DISRAELI: Really I have not had that presumption so far to count upon the indulgence of the House as to regulate the Business of the House in advance. If the permission for which we have asked is granted, we propose to proceed to-morrow with the measure which has already much occupied us, and will again occupy us to-day-the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill. If that measure is concluded in Committee to-night we shall make an arrangement which I hope, on the whole, may be satisfactory; but in our present uncertain state I cannot say anything definite.

MR. GOLDSMID inquired when the Government would propose the Motion that for the remainder of the Session Tuesdays and Wednesdays should be at their disposal? Would it be done at 9 o'clock to-night, or at 2 or 3 o'clock to-morrow morning? [Cries of "Now!"] MR. SPEAKER: With the general permission of the House a Motion of this kind, relating to the Business of the House, can be made now; and if it is the pleasure of the House that the Motion should be put at once, I will at once put it.

MR. W. H. SMITH then moved that Government Orders of the Day shall have precedence on Tuesdays and Wednesdays for the remainder of the Session.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Government Orders of the Day shall have precedence on Tuesdays and Wednesdays for the remainder of the Session."-(Mr. William Henry Smith.)

MR. SULLIVAN said, some of his Colleagues attended on the previous evening to make a strong representation against taking away that day week on account of a Notice of Motion given by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) for that day. They asked that Tuesday next should be excepted from the Motion. The Under Secretary for India informed him on Monday that the Government did not intend to take that Tuesday in view of his hon. and learned Friend's Motion. As regarded his own Motion in reference to the Guikwar of Baroda, he complained strongly that he was only in

formed of the alteration of the inten- | quite prepared to give up his position to the right hon. Gentleman for the purpose of facilitating the introduction of the Government Merchant Shipping Bill, in the hope that he would be able to bring forward his Bill early next Session.

tions of the Government on the preceding evening. Several hon. Members had left town under the impression that the debate on India, which had been fixed for that day, could not possibly come on. He asked the Government not to take that day week from his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Limerick, who had a very strong question to raise on that day as to the conduct by the Government of Irish Business throughout the Session. He made no further complaint about his own question.

MR. DISRAELI: I must ask the permission of the House, as I have already spoken, to make an explanation in answer to the hon. Member for Louth. If the hon. Member thinks himself personally aggrieved, I will give his feelings every consideration; but I was under the impression that, considering the state of the Public Business, he did not intend to bring forward his Motion. If there has been any misapprehension on that subject I shall do everything possible to recognize his claim. But with regard to his other remarks, in which he referred to the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick, and in which he attempted to extract a promise from the Government, I think I can assure him that, with the well-known opportunities of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick, and the openings which the various stages of the Appropriation Grant will afford him, that hon. and learned Member will have no difficulty about his Motion. I acknowledge the general courtesy of the hon. Member for Louth, and if there has been any misapprehension about his Motion I shall certainly make an arrangement.

MR. PARNELL said, the hon. Member for Louth was much indebted to the Prime Minister for the courteous manner in which he had spoken of him; but the complaint of his hon. Friend was not the way in which he himself had been treated, but that the Irish Members should be deprived of Tuesday next for the discussion of an important question affecting the interests of Ireland. There were many Irish Members who believed that the House of Commons could never effectually legislate for Ireland, and the hon. and learned Member for Limerick had put a Motion on the Paper directly raising that question. It was now proposed, at a time when there were very few Irish Members present, that another course be taken, which would prevent that Motion from being brought forward. The Notice of the Government was for the Evening Sitting, and several Irish Members were prepared to speak upon it. They were not, however, present now, and were unprepared for this change in the Government arrangements. He would appeal to the Government to allow the matter to stand over until those Irish Members could be present who were able and willing to speak on the subject. If not, then let the Irish Members have Tuesday next.

MR. DILLWYN thought, as the conversation had disclosed differences of opinion among the Members present, the question had better be deferred until it was reached in ordinary course, in justice to many Members who were now ab

MR. BOORD said, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed in the absence of the hon. Member for North Warwick-sent. shire (Mr. Newdegate), whose Bill with reference to Monastic and Conventual Institutions stood first for Wednesday week on the Orders of the Day. In fact, he did not think it would be quite fair to do so in his absence.

MR. NEWDEGATE said, so many questions had been put to him with reference to the Motion standing in his name in relation to Monastic and Conventual Institutions, that he felt the question of the Order of Business ought not to be decided, except at the time appointed in the Notice Paper. He, therefore, moved the adjournment of the debate.

MR. WILSON said, that his Bill for the closing of public houses on Sundays in England was the First Order for tomorrow. It dealt with a subject of great interest to the country; but at this advanced period of the Session, and having regard to the quantity of Busi-"That the Debate be now adjourned," ness still before the House, he would be (Mr. Newdegate.)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

Mr. Sullivan

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: | the Bill to-morrow and to postpone the I believe I am principally responsible discussion until the second reading, or, for the proposition which has been made if not, that the question should come on by the Secretary to the Treasury. It had at once, when a discussion on the quesoccurred to me, after the answer which tion can be raised. had been given, that it would be incon- MR. DISRAELI: It is always my venient that the proposition should be disinclination to bring forward a Motion made perhaps at half-past 2 o'clock in of this kind except in concurrence with the morning. I therefore suggested, as the general feeling of the House. It was a preferable course, that the Motion my impression that the Motion would should be made now. It is one to which come on to-day; but I should have been I cannot conceive there can be any se- glad to have the opinion of the House rious opposition. It is a usual and almost when it would be most convenient to invariable course that at this period the take the discussion on the second readwhole time of the House should be placed ing. If the boon I ask be granted, we at the disposal of the Government; and will go into Supply to-morrow, and at a certainly the state of Public Business at certain reasonable time report Progress, present is not such as to induce the in order that my right hon. Friend the House to depart from the usual practice. President of the Board of Trade may inI think, however, the House has some troduce his measure at a proper time. I reason to complain of the mode in which think myself it would be more convenient the question has been brought forward if the discussion were to be taken on the by the Government. If the Motion had second reading; but, of course, I only been put down for this morning, hon. mention that for the convenience of the Members would have known what to ex- House. In that event we should conpect, and it would undoubtedly have tinue Supply for a longer time than been the most convenient course. We usual. But I think it would be more appear to have a choice of evils-either useful and convenient to allow hon. Gento take it now without Notice, or another tlemen full opportunity of considering evening when few Members will be pre- the Bill, and the second reading must sent. If objection is entertained to the come on early in consequence of the adMotion being made now, and if it is felt vanced period of the Session. In making to be preferable that it should be ad- these observations, I always assume that journed, I shall offer no opposition to we conclude the Agricultural Holdings that course: I had hoped, however, that (England) Bill to-night. If not, we will on making it the Government would be continue the discussion to-morrow. I am able to have stated what their intentions in the hands of the House; but I was were with regard to the use of the time under the impression that it was the feelthey ask for. I still think it would being of a large majority of the House that extremely convenient that we should the Motion with respect to Tuesdays and know what the Business to-morrow will Wednesdays should be taken to-night. be in the event of the Committee on the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill being concluded this evening. If it is intended that the Bill to be introduced by the President of the Board of Trade is to be brought in early to-morrow and the discussion to be taken on the introduction of the Bill, it is important, and indeed essential, that it should be known, and that the statement of the fact should not be postponed until late to-night. Many hon. Members are absent, and some who would wish to take part in the discussion are not in London and would not be able to return if the announcement were not made until to-night. It therefore seems to me it is of the greatest importance that we should know whether it is intended formally to introduce VOL. CCXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. OSBORNE MORGAN said, that if the Sunday Closing Bill came to be discussed to-morrow it would occupy the entire day. The hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Wilson) had only consented to withdraw for the present the second reading in order to facilitate progress with the measures of the Government; but he by no means understood him to express any willingness to retire the Bill in favour of any private Member.

MR. GOLDSMID said, he thought it would be most convenient to settle the question now, and to decide what was going to be done on Wednesday. The Votes to be taken in Supply were of great interest, and were in four different classes, which would attract, as it were, four different sets of Members.

E

MR. E. JENKINS said, that the proceedings of that day would induce people CRIMINAL LAW-SENTENCE ON JOHN outside to think that Government was still pursuing that fatal policy which had brought it into disgrace with the country.

O'BRIEN.-QUESTION.

What hon. Members on that side of the

House particularly desired to ascertain was, whether the Bill relating to the Merchant Shipping, to be introduced on Wednesday, was to be brought on at such a time as to enable hon. Members to discuss it? He asked the right hon. Gentleman not to give the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill precedence over a Bill which involved the lives of many persons.

MR. MUNTZ thought the proposal of the Government a reasonable one. The

MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, he had made inquiry about this

question was, whether the public wel-matter, and nothing was known about
fare was to be sacrificed to the interests any civil trial. It appeared, from the
record of the military proceedings on
of private Members?
January 10, 1867, that the prisoner

who then bore another name-was sen-
tenced to penal servitude for life, and
there was no record of his having been
Had
first sentenced for only 10 years.
such been the case, he was informed that
a record would have appeared on the
original proceedings.

Question put, and negatived.
Original Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 173; Noes 19: Majority 154,

MR. SULLIVAN (for Mr. O'CONNOR POWER) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is a fact that the military prisoner, John O'Brien, now confined at Chatham

Prison, was first sentenced to penal servitude for ten years, but recalled by the judge immediately after he left the dock and, on account of the alleged the Irish Republic," then sentenced to offence of asking for "three cheers for penal servitude for life?

MR. W. H. SMITH said, that in the event of the House going into Supply on Wednesday they would proceed with the postponed Civil Service Estimates, Class III., and the remaining Estimates in Class IV., and then report Progress, in order to enable the President of the Board of Trade to introduce his Bill relating to unseaworthy ships.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE asked when the Navy Estimates would be taken?

MR. MACDONALD asked the Prime Minister to fix an hour for the introduction of the Merchant Shipping Bill. It should be brought forward when there would be ample opportunity to discuss both its principle and its provisions. Four o'clock ought to be the latest hour

MR. FRENCH asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he has any objection to state to the House the reasons for the dismissal of Jane Hanlon, late nurse in the Criminal Lunatic Asylum, Dundrum; and, whether he has any objection to lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the Report of the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums to the Lord Lieutenant relative to the escape of Margaret Aberton from that Asylum?

for its introduction.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER deprecated any further waste of the public time in pursuing this discussion. He hoped they would now come to a decision on the Motion with respect to allowing Government Orders of the Day for the remainder of the Session to have precedence on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. He hoped the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill would be got through that day. If that were done, then they could go on to-morrow with Supply, and continue until about half-duties of the office. Accordingly, he repast 4 o'clock, when his right hon. Friend commended her dismissal, which was the President of the Board of Trade carried into effect. The Inspector's Recould introduce his Bill. port could not be laid on the Table, because such documents were always considered confidential,

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, in reply, said, that owing to the escape of Margaret Aberton from the asylum the matter was inquired into by the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums, who reported that the nurse, Jane Hanlon, had been guilty of great negligence and improper conduct in the discharge of the

CRIMINAL LAW-JANE HANLON.
QUESTION.

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